In what order do you upgrade? Jon,Fen etc...

[333pg333]

As one of the many enthusiasts with a 944 turbo I often think what to do next? I'm sure this is probably one of the most common questions and having read many posts on various sites I still don't know. Therefore I submit a request from anyone, but especially those that are experienced such as Jon, Fen etc...to list some sort of order of modifications for our cars. Also maybe a brief description of why or what these respective items may be or what they do. Such as the MAF, Map, piggyback, standalone, list. I read stuff but I still don't get it all and it is written by people who understand it, talking to other people who also understand it.
Just to get the ball rolling I will state briefly what I have done and where I think the next steps are: Firstly buy a good car!I then spent lots getting it up and running to stock level. Clutch, Head Gasket, brakes, LSD rebuild, Plumbing/hoses, 968cs suspension upgrades, new wheels and tyres, DP wastegate and ebc, racing seat and harness. + various sundries. Now do I go for MAF, Bigger turbo, injectors, and electronic tuning device? Is this the correct sequence? Are Map systems for people who need to tune it to the 'nth' degree? How close can you get by buying something that is 'plug and play'.
Is there a correct sequence of modifications to follow?

 

[944Turbo]

This could prove intersting

test for boost/vacuum leaks and lose them. (arnworx do a nice tester and throttle body seal kit).

I would reccomend the wastegate as a good starting point. The standard one is poor and worse still with age.
With this you will need a boost control device of some kind. A MBC works but most end up going to an electronic bost controller of some kind so why pay twice?

Once you have a wastegate it is important to have a boost guage to monitor the boost level, go too high with the standard chips and the protection circuits may cause issues. You also do not want to run too much boost until you have the fuel to match (see also narrow and wideband below)

New Chips will allow you to run more boost (relatively) safely by altering your ignition advance and fuelling. Dependant how much boost you want to run (and choice of turbo) will demand how much fuel you need which will decide wether you want larger injectors, an uprated Fuel pressure regulator, a high flow fuel pump.
In theory custom chips should be better (burnt for your car) but we have seen good results with off the shelf items which are cheaper as the dyno time is spread over lots of cars.

An alternative to new chips in your standard engine brain is standalone managment which will allow lots more options and flexibility. The purchase price will be higher but it will offer greater flexibility and room for development with easy addition of MAF/MAP air flow sensing (less restricitive) much more adaptability to further tuining, if you add cams, intakes, coil on plug etc.

Once you start increasing boost levels changing the fuelling it is important to kow the air/fuel mixture is safe (not lean), A narrow band guage and 3 wire sensor (fitted to cat equipped cars as standard) will give you a rough guide when the mixture is close, A wideband will work over much larger ranges and provide better information but they cost more. My current favourite (though I havent bought on yet) is the PLXr500 which allows Exhaust gas temp, knock sensing, and has a G sensor so you have a guide to performance.

MAF or MAP will replace the 'barn door' air flow meter allow less intake restrictions so better driveability / response and top end increases.
My favourite choice currently without going standalone is the vittesse MAF - I bought one, it comes with a chip board to replace the ecu chip and a selection of maps. A piggyback is available so you can fine adjust the fuelling but it is specced oversize so it measures airflow at wide open throttle thus you can change the boost levels and it can adapt (within parameters - go too high and detonation (knocking may occur) and you may max out your injectors and go lean).
Atermarket MAP that works with the standard ECU is harder to find.
The AFM and some other MAFs mimic the standard barn door which is maxxed out at around 3,500 rpm (wide open) then they rely on preset information on the chip (expected boost level / flow characteristics) and so are not as flexible - not really a proplem with standalone but with the standard ecu you may need new chips as boost level changes or you do other mods.

A different turbo will allow more flow, and better efficiency, go too large and it will be laggy at low revs but produce lots of top end power, too small it will be out of its efficiency range at high rpm and produce heat and not much more, less lag though. Design and bearing type will also have an effect. Some turbos are not as well made as others - check with your local re-builder and see which housings are in the bin full of cracks.

I think it is important to have knock monitoring the standard system only can retard the ignition iirc 6 degrees, which may not be enough especially if you are running over 18psi of boost. With higher boost and outputs you are running closer to the limits of safety.

Additional items which will help

Exhaust - an aftermarket exhaust should flow better.
Intercooler - should be more efficient allowing better flow and cooler charge air.
New hard pipes to match the flow abilities of the intercooler.
Head gasket I prefer the sandard item - it should handle extra boost and I believe provided the car is set up right it is up to the task.
Larger capacity should improve the low down torque and ability to generate boost. The smart solution as in Divers avatar uses interlocking pieces to strengthen the top of the block. I imagine the standard bores looking like rocket nozzles at high temps and boost - flexy!

etc.

Finally what I did

Boost enhancer
Turbo - mine had failed, rebuild as a hybrid wasnt too much more K27/8 with J boot adaptor pipe and DF coolant adaptor
Ess exhaust and cat delete.
Boost guage and narrow band
Guru 15 psi Chips, wastegate shims, 3 bar FPR, reliaboost. (delete BE)
Guru 18psi chips, tial wastegate, reliaboost
55lb injectors, EBC profec Bspec1 (delete reliaboost), 9XX (jon Mitchell) chips, SPS refurbed head, 9xx Fuel pump
Vitesse MAF and chip board (delete 9XX chips and standard AFM)

So current spec
Vittesse MAF and chips kit, 3 bar bosch FPR, 9xx fuel pump, SPS head, Greddy profec spec B type 1, 55lb injectors, Not had it on the rollers since finding a big boost leak, but prior to that it was close to 350BHP 350 ftlbs, I believe it might have just made it now at 18psi.

Next steps will be wideband, piggy back for the maf kit, uprated intercooler and hard pipes and knock detection / big red warning light

One of Simons very nice turbos - cant decide to do it now and sell the current turbo or wear it out and then do it,

Hope that helps
Tony

 

[Fen]

You don't ask anything easy, do you? [] I'd say a usual first round of mods is what you have done; get the car running well as standard including cornering and braking, then fit a better wastegate with a boost controller (ideally EBC) and usually an off-the-self chip to let you run a bit more boost. MAF is good for smoothing power delivery and bringing boost in lower as much (probably more) than increasing performance. It will work with the standard injectors etc. quite happily because it doesn't actually increase anything, it removes a restriction. MAP is similar if more complicated to get working and I think it's fair to say is only an option with a standalone management system. Standalone management is a big investment. It allows much better engine mapping as it is higher resolution than the Motronic. It also allows many options not otherwise available like launch control, traction control, WOT shifting, water injection, mappable boost, anti-lag, sequential injection and/or ignition. It isn't so much what it will do for you on its own as what it will let you do in the future. If you were to buy it next it would be very expensive for little gain and you'd only start to see the benefit as you go on to change other components. It's always only as good as the guy who maps it, but then you can say that about anything, even off the shelf chips. Injectors are another item that costs money for no immediate benefit. Replace just them and you need to adjust your mapping to accommodate the change and return the fuelling to where it is now, but they allow you to fit a turbo that will require more fuel. You probably need bigger injectors before you can change the turbo, though if you go for another small one perhaps with ball race bearings you'd get benefit in low-end response with similar top-end power and hence no need for bigger injectors. A piggyback is just a means of massaging the information into or out of the standard engine management usually to allow a MAF to be used. It creates a part-way situation between the standard Motronic with a chip and a standalone being more configurable in terms of fuelling (though maybe Vitesse do one for ignition also?) If you want something to get next that will make an immediate difference (and I assume will continue to work with later mods) then what about an exhaust? A 3" system with no cat will help spool times noticeably. A MAF might help in the same way, though they are less straight-forward and some of them may be of questionable ability to keep up with later mods. They also give problems by getting dirty on many production cars (VW, Audi, BMW etc.) so I imagine the kits (some of which use the same MAF; a Bosch part) will go the same way in time. You are nearing the point where returns start to diminish as you will need to spend money on things like injectors and a fuel pressure regulator in order to be able to spend more money on a turbo that then needs a remap (and when you get this far the off-the-shelf chips available start to become less ideally suited) to see the next level. Over to Jon (and Rick, John, Tony and Paul among others) edit; Tony beat me to it

 

[944Turbo]

The Vitesse piggy back will allow ignition changes but it is usually disabled as you can get into trouble quickly if you get it wrong.
Tony

 

[333pg333]

Thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I forgot to mention that I have a Vitesse chip but apparently that is replaced or becomes redundant if you go to one of his 'Stage' kits? My next mod will be a full stainless 3" exhaust (w cat delete I think). My mechanic is dead against cone filters so to go to a MAF kit I would need one that is either 'Stealth' or can be converted. I know the Sci-vision is one and I believe that Vitesse is planning one also. I'm not sure what one Jon carries as I am yet to see his product list but he sounds very experienced and genuinely interested in only retailing reliable product. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I have one of his short shift kits which also thus far seems an improvement on the stock shifter. I imagine with my mods that if you use the stock 250hp as standard then I have something nudging 300hp at 1.2 -1.3 bar. I assume this is not at the rear wheels though? I am looking for 330-350rwhp with good spoolup which I think is attainable without going crazy? A larger turbo w ball bearings, injectors and the requisite electronics. What do you think?

 

[Fen]

The only cars getting anywhere near 350rwhp that I have seen run on a trusted dyno are Rick's and Mark K's, both putting out around 342rwhp. Figures are here http://www.cannell2.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm Rick's runs standalone with sequential fuelling and ignition among other things, Mark's has huge intake modifications among other high $ parts. Both run a big turbo, big injectors etc. What is it your mechanic has against K&N style filters? I doubt you will ever get near your target with the stock airbox; consider how small the hole in the end of the intake pipe is and how restrictive the whole piece has to be compared to a straight through pipe of 3.5" or bigger ID shooting straight at the turbo intake. The cone filter is just the price you have to pay for that intake setup.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

In what order do you upgrade? Jon,Fen etc...

Hi Patrick, as a direct answer to your question I would not recommend upgrading Jon or Fen - they are both far too lippy and opinionated already. I think they should be downgraded to be honest []

You say you already have a Dual Port Wastegate and Electronic Boost Controller so I think your next step should be components that allow you to run safely at a higher boost level (say 18psi). For this you will need more fuel so are looking at a 3bar fuel pressure regulator or uprated pump and bigger injectors as well as chips that have been mapped for this level. You also need a proper boost gauge to make sure you do not go over this level.

If you want to go further than this you need to start thinking saftey for your engine, so a wideband sensor to keep an eye on the air/fuel ratio and also a better intercooler to keep your intake cool. With these in place you can then think about a better turbocharger and maybe a MAF or MAP kit to remove the restriction of the airflow meter.

After that you can think about removing any restriction in the exhaust, so a 3" system with a free flowing front box (or no box [] if noise is not an issue for you). At this point and if you can safely run 21psi then I think you should be in the 300 - 320 RWHP and if you need to go any further you will then need to look at either standalone engine management or a bigger capacity engine (or both)

 

[Hilux]

Hi

I`m in the same boat as you at the moment having had my 951 for a year.

I recommend that you check and sort the brakes (calliper lift, seized pistons etc) check fuel and brake lines, fit braided hoses, decent pads etc. Rebush the suspension and ARB`s and if the springs and dampers arent new then upgrade them. From past experience in Westfields and Ginettas better brakes and suspension are worth 50 bhp on track cos the car does what its supposed to with confidence.

Then when you`ve proved the engines reliable and worth tuning and will take the punishment then you go for more power. Note more power puts greater strain on all the other components accordingly.

Thats my immediate plan anyway []

 

[333pg333]

I guess the cone filters are a twin edged sword. They do supposedly increase airflow but increase the risk of turbo damage due to small particles being allowed in. However there is some opinion that the original airbox has a greater surface area and is not so insufficient. I don't have the name of the author but it is a well respected American. Would it be possible to build some sort of hybrid combination or increasing the pipe size going into the original? I am not looking for unreasonable power or to be a dyno queen. If I can get low 300's with good early boost that should be sufficient. Oh and Diver944 I have done this to my brakes and have a 3bar fpr as suggested. We also have 100 octane fuel available. While this is expensive it's another insurance against detonation and I can run 1.25 bar atm.

 

[944Turbo]

I think well oiled they should be fine for filtration, however yu do increase the likelyhood of sucking in hot air rather than cold unless an air box is built around it.
Tony

 

[Fen]

Perhaps if you can get bigger diameter pipes to the airbox it might not be so bad as the filter surface area is quite large. There will always be a lot of bends etc. going on whatever though and it's a chunk of black plastic sitting in the flow of heated air through the condenser, radiator and interooler.

 

[944Turbo]

The outlet and J boot are also smaller than most aftermarket turbos inlets so there will be a restiriction, with my turbo it has a 2.75" inlet so the adaptor between the modified J boot and turbo removed this but I was never happy with the join, the VR maf has a 3"pipe so I now have a reducer for the turbo.
Tony

 

[944Turbo]

Forgot to mention 1 grade colder plugs,
Tony

 

[AndrewS]

Hi Patrick,

Plug and play is achievable to various levels of performance. For 350 rwhp, some specific aspects need to be addressed if you want to achieve this reliably.

First, map out what you have to spend. Is the money available all in one go, or over a period of time? Then - work out the most effective way of using that money to achieve your objective.

Choose a suitable provider / performance specialist - if you're not doing the work yourself. If you are - then try to source components with adequate warranty that are known to work together.

There are many risks involved when experimenting with performance enhancements on the 944 Turbo - but some very satisfying end results can be achieved at quite a reasonable relative cost (depending on how you value your own time). You can learn much from the experience of others on this forum too. There are also some owners in Australia that have some seriously tuned 951s not far from you - I'll see if I can get their details for you.

All the best!

Regards,
Andrew

 

[333pg333]

Again, thanks guys. A couple more questions. With the wideband/narrowband issue how do you actually install them and then use them? Obviously you install them and get a bunch of readings driving at various speeds and revs. What do you do then? I assume you look at the readings and then alter the amount of fuel or timing or air supply? How do you actually do this? Also isn't there something that just self corrects these things according to the readings giving you the optimal mix at all times, or is this just a pipe dream? If you get an Maf kit do they come with their own chips and if so does that render the standard or even upgraded chips redundant? Also how can you run an Maf kit without deciding first what Turbo upgrades you intend to do? Doesn't it have to be calibrated to the intended upgrades in hardware? Does the Piggyback do the same thing as a wide or narrow band? Is this what an SMT6 is?
Sorry again for all the newby ignorance but you guys know and I don't.
Thanks.

 

[Fen]

Just think of the wideband as a gauge that tells you what your mixture is. It's basically just a sensor in the exhaust and a readout in the cabin. Narrowband is the same thing but only giving a reading around the optimum air fuel ratio and a narrow band. The Wideband will be able to give readings of values much further from ideal. In terms of what to do with them, the most basic use is as a confidence boost that the fuelling is OK, and trust me you get very anal about keeping an eye on it when ou hav that facility. Next stage is to use it to help you tweak fuelling; assuming you have some sort of means of doing that of course, which I guess is where the SMT6 comes in (I take it it's someone's brand of piggyback fuel controller?) Yes there is something that self-corrects; my Autronic has an "autotune" feature where you select a target AFR value for particular cells then it adjusts itself based on the reading back from a wideband sensor to achieve that. You still need to know what AFR you're aiming for and you need to be able to hold the car in the cell long enough for the ECU to "get a fix". Not as easy in practice as you might think and certainly not a good reason to go standalone. I don't know of any other kit that sets itself automatically. Even autotune is a mapping feature; you aren't supposed to leave it on all the time, rather use it to set the fuelling correctly after which the fuel map will keep the AFR right as you drive. Part of the joy is trying to make sure what you buy today will work today and also with what you buy tomorrow. That is one of the big advantages of standalone; it comes with MAP so your air flow measurment is taken care of forever, it can handle different injectors or ignition systems etc. when you change them (and you can change them to configurations not otherwise available to 944 owners) and it's configurable in terms of fuel, ignition and boost maps to suit whatever you alter with turbos or boost levels. One of the reasons I went standalone was exactly that ability to cope with anything I threw at it later on; I wanted to minimise wasted parts and effort such as a new set of chips every time a new component goes on.

 

[333pg333]

So does this mean that essentially if you buy a standalone you can use it with what's on your car now and just continue to use it as you upgrade turbos, injectors, MAF's, etc?
How much do you pay for a standalone approx. and what don't they do? They sound like they would do a good 'fry up' as well! Also re the Wide and Narrowbands, is one better that the other and what do you actually use to 'change' the mix based on the readings. You say a fuel controller. What is this, where does it go, and what do you do with it? Do you twiddle a knob to increase fuel here and there? I'm starting to think I need a picture book. There are no real aftermarket tuners out here for our cars due to the lack of demand so it is hard to gather info without asking all these pesky questions.

 

[944Turbo]

A standalone replaces the ECU and KLR brains with something more modern and adaptable - you typically set it up with a PC, however you need someone (or need to know someone) who can wire it in and connect it to the releveant components and who can set up the fuelling and ignition timing to suit what is fitted to the car. You can then adapt these settings relatively easily when you make changes rather than getting new chips burnt each time (which may only be required for larger changes anyway).
Tony

 

[ross255]

333pg333

As I have the smt6, you can use it to alter fuel, by changing values in a grid of rpm vs. load. It can also log a variety of inputs.
So you can use it to log a signal from your wideband. It then plots those results, along with load and rpm values, allowing you to then look at where you are too lean or rich, and alter the values accordingly.

A good MAF kit shgould come with chips to suit, otherwise it is just sending a massaged signal to the original chips to fool it into thinking its still seeing the stock airflow signal.
It doesnt need to be recalibrated as much as you think. As long as it knows how much air goes in, it knows how much fuel to add. Thats how i am able to alter the boost settings, even when driving, and still get the correct fuel ratio.

 

[Fen]

A standalone replaces the original ECU. Because it modern technology it can do more than the original one. Because it's not specific to the car it has to be very configurable, but that makes it complex and therefore expensive to install. Consider £4,000 to get one in and running. On the upside Autronic and MoTeC are both Aussie based so there would be lots of experience with them close to you and once you have standalone you suddenly aren't so locked into Porsche tuners (albeit there are quirks to get to know with the hardware). There isn't much on a 944 they don't do as all the ECUs in the 944 do is run the engine, plus they can do things like launch control, anti-lag, WOT upshift etc. I'm not recommending you get one though as it's a serious investment and not essential until you get to the stage of trying to get the last 5% out of your car. Wideband is better than narrowband as it can read AFR across a wider range and pbably with greater accuracy. They also often have things like datalogging included (at least of the AFR vs. engine revs). Of course they are more expensive, but if they weren't then nobody would choose narrowband. On the standard car you can't tweak the fuel. Some aftermarket chips have several subtly different fuel maps that can be selected by changing jumpers in the ECU, but to actually be able to tweak you need something either to take over the fuelling control completely (standalone) or something to manipulate the signals into and/or out of the standard ECU to allow some degree of control. There are various options for that, most MAF kits have some sort of box you can fiddle with and there are add-on fuel controllers from Jap tuner companies like APex'i. Some people on here have things like that and can comment perhaps, but I have no experience with them.