interesting web site

[Laurence Gibbs]

just found this interesting site it's in german but the info is good as are some of the vids.
www.racecam.de It lists some times for the 92 and 93 cup cars at some circuits.
Spa 2.39.21 Pole time and Nordschleife inc GP (i think) 9.32.29 by Uwe Alzen.

 

[Yoda]

Don't forget the SPA circuit has changed since then in case you are comparing times!

 

[SimonExtreme]

Brilliant link and by looking through the data, it proves once and for all that the 964RS is a better car than the 993RS [] Comparing times around Nürburgring GP, the cars were near identical times and the 993's were running bigger and stickier tyres. Pretty open and shut case, IMO.[]

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Yep Spa has changed. If anything it has been made easier over the years with Eau rouge being "modified" along with the bus stop blanchimont and most of the other corners having minor revisions. Which makes a 2.39 lap in 92' all the more incredable.
With regards to the Nurburgring GP track , does anyone know if the track changed significantly from 91-97, The only time the 993 cup cars dipped below the 964 cupon that cct was in 96' according to the the data even then there was less than a second in it. Every other year times are very even.

 

[Melv]

"With regards to the Nurburgring GP track , does anyone know if the track changed significantly from 91-97"

Check out www.racingcircuits.net

Mel

 

[clubsport]

Boys, don't get too excited about the 964RS times, remember these times relate to proper race drivers. A well driven 964 is a very quick car, the 993 is easier to drive quickly for the average driver (like most of us).
This was very evident at the Brands festival trackday where the 964 guys were clearly not on the pace........maybe it was down to driver ability......unless of course you were just being charitable letting the 993RS guys past every time? []

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: clubsport

Boys, don't get too excited about the 964RS times, remember these times relate to proper race drivers. A well driven 964 is a very quick car, the 993 is easier to drive quickly for the average driver (like most of us).
This was very evident at the Brands festival trackday where the 964 guys were clearly not on the pace........maybe it was down to driver ability......unless of course you were just being charitable letting the 993RS guys past every time? []

Sorry, Clubsport, but you are talking ######### (I guess the swear blocker is in action!!)[] The debate we were having had various ellements to it and one was about which car was quicker. The only way to find this out is to put equal drivers in those cars. Competition times with decent drivers are far more relevent than any trackday stories because on trackdays there are too many variables. Bottom line is that with the best drivers the times of the 964RS and 993RS were very similar and that the 993RS used better tyres. On the same tyres, one might guess which would be faster but we will never know for sure.

As to which is easier to driver, more rewarding etc, that's a different debate.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Obviously you don't want another pax lap in mine then Clubsport?????[] It think you might find it was my sublime control that just made it feel slow[8D]

 

[clubsport]

Simon, I can imagine you grimacing and stamping your little foot that someone doesn't agree with you, particularly when they do not use aggresion in their response,,,amusing to say the least.

Laurence, I really enjoyed my pax laps in your car,,,,I thought you knew that? Always a pleasure to go in a well driven car....On the day I thought we both agreed the 993 RS were quicker ( calm Simon,,,,,count to 10!) I wouldn't think this is due to myself or the other 993 drivers being over gifted in the driving stakes.

On track days I have been to inthe past a 964RS has been the quicker car, this is down to the driver knowing their car really well or being able to use their driving talent to the full.

With respect to the comparison day, when it comes to swapping cars....I think some of the 993 RS will have a tougher time jumping into a 964 and being quick, than the 964 boys will in a 993.

**Above is all opinion gained from owning/driving various 911 for the past 11 years, still a lot to learn, but no insults or offence meant to anyone in making it**

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: clubsport

Simon, I can imagine you grimacing and stamping your little foot that someone doesn't agree with you, particularly when they do not use aggresion in their response,,,amusing to say the least.

Clubsport

I am uncertain as to what you are on about and can only assume that your seemingly rude comments are due to a total lack of understanding of forum etiquette.My comment " Sorry, Clubsport, but you are talking ######### (I guess the swear blocker is in action!!)[]" is a jest, which is evidenced by the [] and that donates it is all a joke. Your reply is a rather nasty little attack which goes against the spirit of any forum and certainly seems to me to be against the whole sprit of the discussion we have been having about which car is better.

It would appear from all your posts that it is you who is getting most upset by the (correct []) notion that the 964RS is a better car than the 993RS. However, so long as you are happy with your car, who are we to tell you different.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Apology accepted [] actually there were several good reasons for the 993RS's being quicker on the day, cheifly tyre choice. Good track day tyres can make a big difference None (if memory serves me correctly) of the 964RS's had trackday tyres. Secondly at least two of the 993RS's were of the clubsport or cup variety which makes for an unfair comparison and yes lastly some of the drivers in the 993RS's were pretty talented chasps.
Racing drivers excuse book page 100002 []

 

[clubsport]

Laurence, I do recall Oldtimer's 964 RS running the sticky dunlops........there was precious little diffence between track day drivers in regular RS and Clubsport as we seem to conclude on the day.....the exception being Mr Bussell in the cup car,,, he would have been quicker than most of us driving a bus.

I just don't understand this better "discussion" when clearly the cars have different characteristics, although the comparison day will surely be great fun...I very much doubt if there will actually be a winner as such.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Thank you Laurence, for articulating the point so well. Not only do tyres make a huge difference, but you never know the exact state of tune of the cars. Many 964 and 993 RS's have been modified and that is never obvious. Even in standard form, some cars always seem to be more equal than others.

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: clubsport

........there was precious little diffence between track day drivers in regular RS and Clubsport as we seem to conclude on the day.....the exception being Mr Bussell in the cup car,,, he would have been quicker than most of us driving a bus.

Proves the point totally. The only reason that there would be precious little difference between the regular RS and Clubsport is driver ability. I find it totally improbable that the same driver wouldn't be faster in a clubsport than a regular car. The clubsport has a higher level of grip and therefore is faster through corners while it also accelerates faster and brakes better. So, even if the driver wasn't brave/good enough to push the clubsport any faster through the corners, he should still gain on accelration and possibly under braking.

Therefore, if you noticed little difference there must be another factor going on, namley driver ability. And what we have attempted to do is to find ways of removing that from the equation, which is why the race times are so helpful.

I do agree that all it does is show which car is faster and that faster doesn't equal better but as the whole "better" thing is toungue in cheek, we are beginning to split hairs a bit.[]