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Intermittent Starting Problems

Copperman05

New member
My car has recently had some problems starting, the starter motor turns the engine but it doesnt start, jump leads do not help and the fuses seems ok. Each time after a period of not starting when I try it again it starts leaving no obvious reason, its making me confused as to what the issue is. Once running the car is fine. Anyone else had similar, am I looking at a faulty DME or getting vapor lock?

Any help is appreciated.

Edd
 
hi edd it could be a number of things.dme relay.fuel pump or the alarm.the immobiliser on my s2 is a pain.sometime it work's first time.but you have to insert the chip 2 or 3 times before you hear the bleeping.then it's fine.were do you live edd.cheers carl
 
Hi Carl, I live in Hertforshire. Immobiliser is bleeping fine. As I say the engine is turning over but not starting, sometimes....

Edd
 
hi edd when the car won't start.have you had a spark plug out.to see if there's a spark? and take off the fuel pipe . place inside a bottle or jar to see if you got fuel.then may'be we can work it out?? cheers carl
 
The DME relay (really two relays in one case) is always the first point of call. Buy a new later type 993 part and replace it. If it wasnt the problem, then it would have been at some point, so itll have been £18 well spent...
 
Yeah, thats what I thought, so just bought one from ebay. Could someone tell me what the crank case sensor does and is it the same thing as the speed and reference sensor?

Cheers

Edd
 
Yes, it is. I believe it's the S2 that has 2, both on the flywheel, one for position and the other for speed.
 
It tells the ECU (DME) where in the 360 degrees of rotation the engine is and how fast it is turning. It's critical to calculating when to inject fuel and when to fire the spark plug.

An S2 won't even try to fire until it's turning at something like 5rpm on the starter motor, which is why they all churn for a second or so, and being a big 4-banger they tend to churn slowly (because each cylinder has quite large displacement). Sometimes poor starting when hot could just be the wiring to the starter or the starter itself being less than optimal and resistances when hot push it over the edge.

I'd say more likely it's something else though and you're doing the right thing starting with the DME relay. It could be one of the sensors is dicky or just out of adjustment so not giving a good signal. They work by counting teeth on the ring gear, in turn using inductance, so they have to be close to the top of the teeth to be able to see the difference between tooth and groove.

Actually now I think it's Turbo that has 2 and the S2 only one. The S2 gets position from a missing tooth and speed by counting teeth per unit time passing it, the Turbo uses grub screws in the flywheel and a missing tooth - I think the grub screws are for speed.
 
Thanks for the explanation, been using the car today and its been fine which makes me think its a bad connection in the DME or on one of the sensors, going to change the DME when its arrives and the car is due for the belts to be re-tensioned soon so will let RPM have a look if it still shows similar problems then.

Thanks again.

Edd
 
Sorry another question...is the DME relay different from the other DME (ECU)? The first controling fuel and the latter the ignition and injection system? I'm a little confused...

Edd
 
Im not sure what youre asking in the question above: but it may help if I explain that the DME 'relay' has two physical relays inside. One powers the ECU and the other powers the fuel pump. Either or both of the individual relays inside the DME 'relay' can fail, or play-up, and either would incapacitate the car.
 
The symptoms I had for a dodgy Reference sensor was that the car would start intermittently but once started would run fine. I would say turn the engine over for a few seconds with no signs of catching. Give it a second or third go and it would eventually catch. I think this is the same symptoms you have described.

It turned out that the reference sensor was fine but had vibrated loose in its housing. I tightened it up again and all has been well with the world since.

Fen described the operation well in that the signal from the reference sensor tells the ECU to switch on the ingnition circuit. Once the engine has started the ignition circuit is on and stays on hence no problems.

The reference and speed sensors are both the same part umber and are mounted on top of the bell housing. The crank sensor is a different sensor.

The sensors bolt onto a small bracket that bolts onto the top of the bell housing. This bracket can be height adjusted as the sensor needs to be some mm off the teeth of the flywheel. In my case because the bracket had worked loose all I did was tighten it up and the height was unaltered. If your sensor is cream-crackered and you have to replace it then you will need to reset the height. Clarkes describes a couple of methods to do this.

If it does turn out to be your reference sensor then I have one (a brand new unused one that I bought thinking it was the sensor that was knackered) you can have for a good price.

Not sure what the speed sensor does but I think symptoms of that going are that as you approach a junction and depress your clutch as you come to a stop the engine will stall. i.e. the revs drop and keep on dropping. These are the symptoms on my Focus at least when its speed sensor when kaput.


 
Ok thanks for the offer to sell the sensor, I will bare it in mind should it turn out to be the reference sensor. How do I identify this sensor? It seems to be runnig fine at the mo, but who knows when it will next happen...

Cheers

Edd
 
They are easy to spot. Look behind the cam cover at the top of your engine, you'll see the conical bell housing coming off the back of the engine. The speed and reference sensors are right on top at about 12 o'clock and are side by side. You can't really miss them. Give them a wiggle to see if they are loose - mine was really loose. If loose then you can simply use a socket (about 10mm or so) on the nut on the top of the bracket the sensor fits into to tighten up.

When mine was intermittently not starting, after a few days of looking into the engine bay scratching my head and occasionally wiggling the odd wire or connector to no avail I gave up and called the RAC. The RAC man, who was delighted to be called out to an old car that he could actually do some troubleshooting on, rather than just plugging in his black box only for the 'computer to say no', used a pen-like tool on the coil to confirm if there was a spark. As soon as he confirmed there was no spark then he immediately said - "Reference sensor" as confident as you like. Classic signs apparently. He said he saw it all the time with Bosch motronic back in the eighties - in a slightly sentimental voice as well. I immediately bought a reference sensor assuming the sensor was kaput (£75) but when I went to install it I noticed the bracket was loose - tightened it up and the rest is history.
 

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