Is the price right?!?

[sjm18]

Hi all - this is my first post here (been a PCGB member for about 6 years though) so hope this goes to the right forum! As you will see, I am in a real quandry abouyt whether to buy this car....

It's a RHD 1972 911 2.4S at Autofarm - asking £35k. I took the car for a drive yesterday and it felt very tight/ strong (although I am not technically/ mechanically minded). The bodywork is ok (bits of rust on the front of bonnet etc) and the interior is alright (bit tired, but ok for a 35 yr old car). I'm not fussed about cosmetics as my intention would be to have Autofarm to convert it in to an ST, so bonnet would be replaced, new steel arches, new lightweight interior etc. I'd probably keep the engine as it is, but would maybe have a few tweaks - but nothing that could not easily be put back to 'original'.

My question is this: does the price seem about right, because it is not on the original engine. The original "matching numbers" engine went pop some years ago; however, it has been replaced with a proper 1972 2.4S engine - just a few numbers out. Bearing in mind how I would be converting the car does this really matter? And again, bearing in mind it's not matching numbers is the price right?

Finally, do you think a recreation ST based on an original 72 2.4S would be worth more than the same recreation but based on, say, a 3.2 Carrera? That is the other (cheaper!) option - but I have a feeling the 72 S would make for a better car with more value in the long term.

Sorry there's a lot here - but I would really welcome all opinions!

Many thanks, Simon

 

[bones]

Hi Simon , I'm no great expert on the earlier models but I know some are fetching high prices. However for 35k I wouldn't be expecting visible rust on the car. If you can see it then it is elsewhere too. Get a PPI before you buy something like this. I think Nick Moss would be the ideal guy to check this car out for you and indeed might be able to help you source, convert or restore a car, great guy. Have a look at -
http://www.early911.co.uk/

 

[sjm18]

Thanks Bones - appreciated

 

[Helen Goff]

to be honest the price seems a little steep t me for a non-matching numbers car . middle to upper £20k would be the Max i would think of paying.

Take your time and shop around there is some really good cars out there at the moment.

 

[38F3E1]

Simon.

Can't help you with the value of the 2.4S other than it should reflect the value of a fair 2.4S with non matching numbers. You need to have it carefully inspected as value will depend on how good any previous restoration has been, what the condition is like now, what non original panels are on it (later doors, boot lid, etc???), what diffcult to get bits are missing (full standard interior and trim bits?), what it's original factory colour was, etc.

Whatever you start with is going to end up being worth the value of the original model it started as (in the form it was - ie non matching numbers). Then you can add the value of valuable bits you put on that could be sold separate later (fancy twin spark engine, original fuchs wheels, 10K tacho, etc). So if the model of car is worth say 30K and then you spend 12K on said engine, 3K on some wheels, 2.5K on some steel arches, and lets say another 5K on other period bits you end up with a car that cost about 50K in parts (plus all the labour to put it together in ST form which you will never get back) that could be sold as 50K in bits later. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no intrisict value added in putting it all togther as an ST rep (or whatever rep you choose).

Same aurgument when starting with a 3.2, or a 911T, or a 912 ...

Best way to work out these projects is to think hard and spec your final build in detail (what engine, what wheels, what period look, etc) and then work backwards to find the best donor model.

Ian.

 

[jamescharnley]

IMHO, an ST replica is going to be worth the same wether its based on a 2.4S or a 2.4T ( assuming the finished spec is the same in both cases )

I would have thought it would be better to start with a sound 'T' for say £15K .... you then have £20K in hand to build that fire breathing MFI motor []

 

[sjm18]

Thanks all - these comments are pretty consistent with what I thought might be the case. Nice to have some reassurance!

 

[Nick Moss]

I have gone down a similar route with my own ST replica (oh I hate that word!). I have a matching numbers, fully historied, LHD 2.2S that I have restored bodywise and could complete as original and sell for £38K (I have already been offered this amount) or I can continue the build as an ST with some prime parts that I have collected. I have all the parts to build a short stroke 2.5 twin spark motor, the correct style rear Minilites and 7R fronts, a plastic centre fill tank etc. etc. Will the car finished as an ST be worth more than £38K? Well I think so. Have a look at the price fetched by the ex-Brian Burroughs RHD hot rod 2.4S that was sold recently by Neil Primrose. That was advertised for around £60K (I forget the exact mount, maybe someone can remember?)

Having said that would I start another ST from a RHD 2.4S? No, for a start, to get the proper feel of an early car it has to be LHD. With the rarity of any RHD S I could loose a few friends by converting one away from stock. I would start with a LHD 2.4T and as James says give myself a £20K start.

 

[38F3E1]

ORIGINAL: Nick Moss

Have a look at the price fetched by the ex-Brian Burroughs RHD hot rod 2.4S that was sold recently by Neil Primrose. That was advertised for around £60K (I forget the exact mount, maybe someone can remember?) ...

Believe the hot rod was up for sale at £59,995. Researched that car when it came on the market including talking to the man who originally built it. Interesting what it was valued at.

Ian.

 

[38F3E1]

Nick.


Do you know if you are going to have steel ST flares available and when that is likely to be? Heard you were working on it.

Ian.

 

[Nick Moss]

Interesting what it was valued at

I guess it was valued at what someone paid for it.....

I should have the ST arches available in the next month or so, the process has not gone quite as smoohly as hoped.

 

[IanHighfield]

I would start with a LHD 2.4T and as James says give myself a £20K start

One question I have is around 'returning to origianl' and selling parts separately. If you have done flared ST arches, then I guess there is no going back to the original narrow body rear arches ? Are the front arches complete bolt on wings, or welded on extensions - same issue if they are ?

I have a 1973T that is super solid from California, and having read this post and the ST article in 911PW, I am of the mind to done something 'ST inspired' with mine.

Question - did they make a narrow body ST (avoids the welded on arch issue and the cost for me).

Ian

 

[Nick Moss]

The first STs were narrow bodied. Over the ST's development period the rims got wider and the arches grew to acommodate them. Most STs had GRP front wings, but the works rally cars used steel for greater strength. I can supply GRP front wings and will be doing steel arches shortly

 

[IanHighfield]

Not wishing to hijack Simon's thread, but is there any good recommended reading on the ST ?

I would prefer to stay with the narrow body, simply in my case on cost grounds for now, but do appreciate the wide body version Simon refers to. I also like the idea of an ST, being less in number than the RS Replicas.

Not a real ST, but a nice example of what I would refer to as a narrow body (?) ST Inspired. My car is white and I would retain the original 'T' bumper rather than this RS version.

 

[Nick Moss]

John Starkey's "R to RSR" and "R to GT3" are recommended references if you can get hold of them, try Amazon.co.uk. Also the "Porsche Book" by Jurgen Barth and Lothar Boschen.

 

[sjm18]

Nick - many thanks for your time yesterday - very helpful.

Ian Highfield - I'm also on the look out for suitable reading material so will let you know if I come across anything. One good book I've recently been referring to is "The 911 Story" by Paul Frere. It's a technical book, and I'm not really a 'technical' person, but it has some excellent information in it, as well as some good pics etc.. Well worth a read by anyone who wants to know anything about how the 911 developed from the first prototype up to the end of 993 production (includes all R/ RS/ RSR models etc.)