Just how sweet is the lightweight original?

[Neil Haughey]

Its that time of year when some of us are stuck at home with work shutdown over the holidays and such idle thought creeps in such as this thread title. Now over the years I heard from the likes of Jon Mitchell and Tref at length about the joys of the basic early cars and for one or two of our regular forum stalwarts its a pet subject.

Just 2 thoughts to start the ball rolling.

1) As stock the early cars are listed as 1180 Kg, my race car after an obscene amount of money over the years is only down to around 1120 Kg, albeit weight reduction was only a secondary consideration. One could get an early car to that by taking all the boot stuff out (rear deck carpet, tools, wheel and seat back etc.) and changing out the front seats etc etc.. In other words easy peasy.

2) Back in 2010 EMC built a green 944S race car for young Ben to start racing and ran it on little 15" cookie cutters and dinky 205/50-15 Dunlops, its still the quickest car they have built on road tyres round the long Gerrards corner at Mallory.

Maybe it sounds perverse but after 13 years of Porsche ownership when I browse the classifieds and all that it is the odd minty low miles early 2.5 that catches my attention, maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm not alone [].

What say you.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Might sound strange, but I've never driven an early car. Spent many miles in one as a kid, but it's a gaping hole in my 944 experience.

Given that I've always said the Lux was a more enjoyable weekend toy than the S2, can I add a supplementary question?

How different is an early 944 from a series 2? Not the later 2.7, ABS and all, just the '85.5 car over the earlier ones?

 

[Cater_Racer]

We are 1200KG with race fuel, plastic door windows and rear hatch, all metal, no headlamps etc. and all the insides ripped out.

That said we also have quite a heavy cage, usual FIA seat and belts, fire, etc...

I think Anthony (Mac944) is running about 150kgs lighter.

I'm sure that weight reduction is a lot cheaper than BHP increasing , so that is almost certainly the way we will go.

Although we wont compromise the doors, I wold happily loose some of the bonnet/front wings/badge panel weight.

G

 

[George Elliott]

Maybe it sounds perverse but after 13 years of Porsche ownership when I browse the classifieds and all that it is the odd minty low miles early 2.5 that catches my attention, maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm not alone .

You are not alone.....

Weight is the enemy and all the wide wheels, ABS units, unsprung weight, big brakes, PAS, electric seats, heavier ARB's etc made a ballerina into a shire horse.

Seen the weight of a new GT3 [8|]

George
944t

 

[944 man]

Are you keeping both doors complete Gerry, or just the drivers side?

I no longer have easy access to a weighbridge as the quarry that I used has closed, but my lightweight series one 944 was guestimated at 180 RWHP by a Tesla G-Tech Pro!

 

[zcacogp]

Maybe it sounds perverse but after 13 years of Porsche ownership when I browse the classifieds and all that it is the odd minty low miles early 2.5 that catches my attention, maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm not alone .

You are not alone.....

I'll join that crowd. The lightweight, early, original models of cars are often the best ones to drive (Mk1 Golf for instance, or possibly an early Countach as compared to the overgrown, be-winged, bloated later ones) and I do often think that the 944 I'd change my S2 for would be a very early 2.5. I'm not sure how good a daily driver one would make, but it's still a 1980's Porsche and hence should still be solidly built.


Oli.

 

[Mike_Pollock]

I had an '83, manual rack and loved it. When I got the 2.7 it was touch and go which I kept. The 2.7 won as I'd had the 2.5 3 years and felt like a change.

I loved the the steering, more lively than the powered 2.7. You can feel the extra weight of the later cars. I have driven an oval dash 2.5, it felt like my 2.7 but with less poke than the early car, it wouldn't be on my wish list. Not driven an S.

Wheel is lower in the square dash but as I've got short legs fine for me. Seats - mine were torn across the base but were supportive and comfortable.

Heater worked well as far as I was concerned.

Day to day - mine are regular use but not daily transport - I'd have an S2 if it needed to be, more easy power and refined and feels more solidly built.

If mine went tomorrow I'd only look at an early one or probably an S2 (or if it was a really good deal a 2.7!)

 

[pitzey]

Must say , having had my 84 lux for a month , i love it ....

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Power steering or not?

 

[pitzey]

Nope, No power steering, no air con , no electric seats .....

 

[Neil Haughey]

Power steering is a tough one. I am back running a manualised PAS rack in my S2 again like the cup cars, absolutely love the feel and connection to the tyres is a world apart from PAS which kills most of the feel. However the loading back through the steering, in particular kick back is really brutal and I just couldn't man handle it with the slicks. On 225x45-16 Dunlops I can manage for short periods, enough for track sessions or sprint races but longer is as bad as trying to do endurance sessions in a kart. This year I will see if I can build myself up to 245-45x16 all round []

However on dinky little 205-50x15 like I would run on an early 2.5 I wouldn't have any qualms about going manual steering.

 

[944 man]

PAS cars are quicker, I believe.

 

[Neil Haughey]

The ratio is, definitely. I did look it up years ago and it wasn't that big a difference. Its surprising how much all the PAS gubbins weigh. I have in my garage in one big bag with all the PAS stuff and in another all the bits for the handbrake system if I want to make my car road legal again. The PAS bits feel about twice as heavy which is surprising.

 

[edh]

Early 944 in White, Fuchs, pascha...
.perfect []

It's the one I would buy to keep/collect. It would need to be in great condition though.

Failing that, a 924 turbo would do.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

If you're thinking early 944 for lightness and simplicity, why not a 924S? [8|]

 

[Neil Haughey]

No real difference in weight (always seemed a bit of a myth that one to me), doesn't look as good and doesn't benefit from the wider track made possible from the 944 arches. Wide track makes such a huge difference to how these cars handle its why racers roll the rear arches and fit 20mm spacers all round. Some may however prefer the cleaner look of that car, for me the wheel arches has always been one of the biggest attractions of the 944.

 

[Andy97]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

No real difference in weight (always seemed a bit of a myth that one to me), doesn't look as good and doesn't benefit from the wider track made possible from the 944 arches. Wide track makes such a huge difference to how these cars handle its why racers roll the rear arches and fit 20mm spacers all round. Some may however prefer the cleaner look of that car, for me the wheel arches has always been one of the biggest attractions of the 944.

I do fully understand the preference for the more muscular look of the 44 but I am now appreciating the simpler lines of the 24 for obvious reasons! Must admit I don't fancy a 2.0 litre 24 but I do really like my 24S racer, but I do wish it had a bit more power!

My 24S racer weighs 1030kg on the Mallory Park scales ( plus the driver). It could probably go lighter but I want to keep the steel doors for a bit of added protection and it still has the glass rear hatch, unlike the BRSCC Porsche 924 2.0 litre racers (they are usually 1000kg with the driver in).

It handles really well - probably the best handling race car I have owned; it just feels really secure and predictable on 15 x 8 wheels, with a very slightly wider front and rear track. The other advantage of a 924S is that I believe that it has slightly closer gear ratios than any of the 44s and that certainly suits the race car, particularly when fitted with the JMG short shift kit.

It's also very impressively cheap to race!!! Neil, seeing as you are returning your S2 to the road, you should share my car in a few races.

As for road cars, I once had an early square dash none PAS car as a loan car from PH Sportscars whilst my then 2.7 road car was in for some work, and the 2.5 really flew and seemed to rev more freely than the 2.7. Boy was it heavy to park though!

I'd still love to try a 924 Turbo and, of course, a 924 Carrera GT would be fantastic. I have started dreaming about a 924T race car for the new for 2015 "Transaxle Porsche" class of CSCC Future Classics, with an intercooler and engine management, but I'm sure it will be just a dream.

 

[tref]

At the moment I have access to:

924S
924 turbo, but convertible, so not so rigid and very heavy.
'83 944, no PAS, only other option being aircon.
'91 S2
two '86 Turbos.

Which is best? All of them!

Most of the time I leave the PAS disconnected on the S2 - I prefer it that way

You wouldn't believe how different they all feel (well, some of you would), including what should be identical (the '44 turbos).

A good one of any is probably better than a bad one of any of the others.

The S2 feels the heaviest (that could be an LPG tank and the amount of crap I carry around in mine though!) - getting into it after the '24 S or early '44 REALLY shows it up - it feels like you have left the handbrake on.

The '24 Turbo is the most "fun" but is hard work, and hard to get working right.

If you want to get somewhere when you are tired, late at night, in the rain, through traffic, on a wide variety of roads, the S2 will beat the rest hands down. Its probably the most "relatively" boring.

The S2 is not boring!

The early 944 or 924S are the cheapest to run and maintain by a long margin. both are on 15" wheels.

The turbos have boooooost. They also have lag. Anyone with a soul that has driven one and feels the boost wants one, irrespective of whether it makes sense (yep, that is why I have one!).

Thinking about it though... I wouldn't be at all surprised if the order of "fun" corresponded with the order of "lightness". That may just be a coincidence. That is certainly not related to out and out speed, or speed from A to B.

I have been asked "If the garage was on fire, and you can only drive one out, which would it be?". I'd probably die in the flames trying to make up my mind.

 

[George Elliott]

Power steering is a tough one. I am back running a manualised PAS rack in my S2 again like the cup cars, absolutely love the feel and connection to the tyres is a world apart from PAS which kills most of the feel. However the loading back through the steering, in particular kick back is really brutal and I just couldn't man handle it with the slicks. On 225x45-16 Dunlops I can manage for short periods, enough for track sessions or sprint races but longer is as bad as trying to do endurance sessions in a kart. This year I will see if I can build myself up to 245-45x16 all round

However on dinky little 205-50x15 like I would run on an early 2.5 I wouldn't have any qualms about going manual steering.

Interesting, was wondering if your steering wheel is small and compounding the load of the oversize rubber?

George
944t

 

[Neil Haughey]

I thought the same but it was the biggest size Momo do and I since switched it to another large Momo wheel. Even the pro drivers back in the day in the cup cars complained about the kick back without PAS, you would never notice it on the road but at 98+% on sticky tyres when it starts to move around it can be pretty brutal at times. Last summer when I did a little shake down test at Haynes was a case in point, I tried to do an endurance stint towards the end of the afternoon noticed that I was breathing really heavily (never ever done that before on track before) and had to stop at which point I noticed I had done maybe 10 minutes! I was completely bonked and recovery breathing like I had done a few miles running. That is a tiny track though nearly all very low speed corners which is very physical. Drop the corner speeds down 2 or 3 mph like I did for the previous 4 years [&o] and its easy, much less wheel work.

Andy thanks for the offer definitely something to think about, your not alone btw in trying to tempt me into keeping racing its a great fraternity. As a CSCC man you may or may not be aware that early 944 and 924 cars would be very competitive in the CTCRC pre 83, one guy has raced a 944 2.5 with them but I don't know if they have accepted the cars into their main classes yet. Of course I am always amenable to sharing options on my own car as well, talked about it with Ben Demetriou in the past luckily both of us have the seat etc. in exactly the same position.

Tref I knew you would pop along at some point, always want to hear more mate.