KKK Turbo turbine play tolorences?

[Dan944t]

Hi guys ,

in preperation to start the full rebuikd on my 87 944 turbo engine, I have been going over all my wrapped up parts and decided to see what the fan/ turbine play was like on the turbo.
Well im sure I did t feel much when I pulled it off a few years ago but maybe I was just too busy with taking the engine out.

Anyhow ow I can feel a slight bit of play but don’t know if it’s in tolerance or if there should be zero play? So I got a dial gauge on it the best I could and if I push it to one side and pull it across the i opersite side so left then right for instance the total travel is 0.32mm on the dial gauge so this is the overall travel. If it’s as it is and I just moove it to one side or the other then the measurement would be halved so it would only be 0.16 mm if this makes sense?

I can’t find my tolerance spec book I had when I was micrometering the crank last year and I seem to have also lost my Haynes over the house moove ?? so I have a guy at porsche who’s hopefully going to look into getting some specs back for me today ??

have any if if you guys had experience in rebuilding these or know if wether I need to? hope I don’t but if so does anyone know who could do it and what sort of price would I expect if so?

i would love to buy a kit and do it myself but seem to remember it’s really only for professionals due to the speed it spins or did I dream that up and is it something I could rebuild myself If needed???

any advice appreciated ??
daniel

 

[PSH]

hi Daniel.. to be honest with your mods I wouldn't bother putting the kkk back on, the car will be breathing much more and would benefit a lot from a bigger turbo. Having said that and to answer your question, when checking a turbo endfloat although important it isn't the biggest issue, if you can rock the turbine, that is, lift it up and down in it's bearing then that's not acceptable and requires a rebuild. You are correct in your assessment that rebuilding a turbo is for the professionals, this isn't to say that it's rocket science but to say you need to have the right equipment and training in such equipment to check the turbine for cracks, check for balance and be able to correct any balance issues when found.

I can't remember.. what do you plan for engine management and air/fueling control, I had assumed that you would be installing a MAF/MAP unit and either VEMS or something like Vitesse?

cheers

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

Hi Pete,

yes I was thinking of getting the Vettesse maf ect for the future pretty much the same setup as you have just wasn’t planning on having to fully rebuikd the engine so all my moneys gone into this now so will have to wait for another year or two?

wasnt sure if my play in the turbine was anything to worry about for now till I replace it.

i would like more torque( not that before this it didn’t have loads! I was very very happy with what I had ) but with all the extra mods I am now adding again now I’ve had to buy new parts that we’re ruined ?? I wouldn’t mind a bigger turbo? Just love the quicker spoil but I’ve not experienced another 944 turbo with a bigger turbo like yours so don’t know what to expect or what I’m missing really.

what sort of money are they pete and what to go for when I do?

also would it cause problems with my chipset or just run as normal and rely on adjustment made to my MBC? As I still have notmal air flow meter all brot calerb to my current set up - my new lightweight racing components ect.

Just finished ordering most if my engine gaskets and bits and pieces from porsche main dealer and it came to just shy of £800 OUCH!!! And I already bought all the glyco bearings few fires pipes and bits and pieces last year.

And still need to buy oil,balance belt ,head gasket and silicone water pipes from Lindsey Racing later today . Not bloody cheap this old girl, but that’s becuase I’m not scrimping I suppose. Could have saved a few quid on eBay ect , but feel better knowing it’s a genuine part.

cheers
daniel

 

[PSH]

Ok..I have a better idea of where you are now..if using the original AFM for now then perhaps stick with the kkk, from what you describe it may be ok as is, a rebuild of any tubo is going to start at just over £300, or it was a few years back. IIRC my turbo from Lindsey is approx $1300, it's a great turbo but things have changed a lot since and there are no doubt more capable turbo's available today, mine has always been very good and can produce much more power if asked so I'm happy. The block you are building will cope with any future upgrades so I'd go for safety as you add bits. I don't like 'off the shelf chips' as they are only a 'halfway house' to more power and not as safe as a proper map custom made for your particular car. To get the most from your car you have to have a DPW, a form of control for the boost, a 3 BAR FPR (adjustable is better) and a map written by someone who knows there stuff, for me there is only one person to do this and that's Wayne Schofield. You can use all of that with your kkk, it will give you around 300bhp depending on which turbo your cars fitted with. K26 will be approx 280, K27 just over 300bhp, after that the next stage would be a MAF/MAP (i can highly recommend Vitesse) , larger turbo, bigger injectors, some head work and then Wayne to make sure this all works safely. John at Vitesse is a wizard at writing a chip using what info you give him for your car and it will not only start on the key but it will idle smoothly and run within the correct AFR's (btw, very important that you fit a good AFR wideband). So you can install the Vitesse with whatever you told John was going to be fitted and then if I was you, drive up to Wayne and get him to put it through it's paces on the dyno, you'll then have a car that will run WOT in any gear safely.
Regarding spooling, a good EBC can greatly reduce spooling time, in fact, you can probably make it spool quicker using a high 'duty cycle', but there are side effects which as long as you're aware and made allowances you can still have a safe car.

There was something else that I was going to add but it's now slipped my mind, if I remember I'll add it later..

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

Cheers Pete,

Sorry for late reply sorying kids out !


seems the missing parts to my car really making huge power is the vitesse maf kit with new maps, bigger turbo then I am intending to drive up and see Wayne for certain, I was hoping to do that this year with the new mods but it wasn’t to be and a full build has taken its place. At least the motor will be in a good strong state when I do get round to it Upgrading further.

for now I have actually gone and rechecked The turbo play and unfortunately it has got in and out movement also ???? So I am going to have to investigate who and where I can get it done and at what sort of cost ?

i will only run this kkk turbo until I upgrade to the next level of the vitesse maf ect so it will see little use if I do get it done which looks like I will have too. Wish I could do it myself though .

I hope to upgrade it in a few years .

any knowledge of any good U.K. rebuilders I can try?

i shall google it tonight if I get a min if not tommorow.

Atb
daniel

 

[PSH]

Universal or Technic turbo's...I think it's uni ersal who I've usex a couple of times...IIRC Chris is tbe guy to talk too....Either company will se d a courier to pick the turbo up and deliver when ready....the turnaround is usualt pretty quick....

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

Thanks allot pete, will start looking into it ????

 

[bmnelsc]

As to the original question... Haynes manual for 924 turbo which is a KKK K26 type K gives maximum axial play of 0.16mm and radial play of of 0.42mm. I appreciate the 944 uses a K27 but I expect the differences would be turbine size, compressor output, etc. I would bet the clearances would be the same.

 

[944Turbo]

As to the original question... Haynes manual for 924 turbo which is a KKK K26 type K gives maximum axial play of 0.16mm and radial play of of 0.42mm. I appreciate the 944 uses a K27 but I expect the differences would be turbine size, compressor output, etc. I would bet the clearances would be the same.

K26/6 for 220 models, K26/8 for 250 Models.
Mine is a K27 (26/8) Hybrid, I am not near by my receipts and cant recall how much it cost but it was by ITS near Leeds that used to do a lot of the turbos for the porsche cup at the time, over 80,000 miles on mine. Turbo Dynamics in Christchurch also good.
Tony

 

[Dan944t]

Thanks guys , I’m looking into rebuilding it and people near to me, so far have a couple of options and have also found a rebuild kit for it. I’m yet to know what the U.K. people will cjarge me for rebuilding the bearings but Lindsey will do it for around £300 plus shipping back and obviously plus me shipping it to them.

And thats withought anything else needed that may break ect so it coukd add up

am so tempted to do it myself and then get someone to balance it but not sure they would go for it.

Atb
daniel ??

 

[PSH]

Hi Daniel
I wouldn't send anything abroad for a rebuild, you'll get a much better job here in the UK. Regarding doing it yourself, don't...I'll tackle most things for my self but a turbo isn't something you want to get wrong, play safe and let the guys with the correct gear do it. It's up to you of course but IMHO it's just not worth taking the chance...

Regards

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

I hear you pete! ?? the kit is so cheap too! Under £40

 

[Eldavo]

Sent mine to Turbo Dynamics - great communications throughout and very easy to deal with. Sent them an absolutely goosed 26/8 and they sent me back a hybrid with a brand new housing and billet hot/cold side plus a bag of all the old bits.

If they hadn’t sent me the old bits back I’d have thought they’d binned my Turbo and sold me a new one The refurb was that good!

 

[PSH]

likewise from Universal...also one of my blades had a hairline crack in it, you wouldn't see this without an X-ray which is how they found it.....

 

[Dan944t]

Hi eldavo,

im going to hopefully get a bit of time later today to make a few enquiries as I’ve also found last night one that’s only up the road from me but I’ve never heard of them Enfield turbos ?

How much did it cost you eldavo?

If it wasn’t for the balancing I would deffinately rebuiId it myself ( and I’m busting to but I won’t risk running it withought the balancing
Thanks
daniel

 

[Dan944t]

likewise from Universal...also one of my blades had a hairline crack in it, you wouldn't see this without an X-ray which is how they found it.....

Yes the X-ray and the balancing is the only thing that stops me pete as I’ve watched so many videos oN rebuilding these and it would be a piece of cake other than these specialists techniques ??
Ive spent a small fortune the last 3 days on rebuild parts that I really could have done without this but seems My hands are tied here!

atb
daniel

 

[PSH]

Hi Daniel

Did you get my replies last night, I must have sent at least 4?...i think there may be a problem with the forum PM?

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

Hi Pete,

yes thankyou mate ?? I sent you a few email replies as well as on the pm system on here as I don’t think it’s working as it should?

i managed to find those photos which help a great deal.

just starting to go through the process of measuring the oil bearing clearances but have opened the bag of nuts and bolts from machine shop for the cradle and just notice that I am missing couple of nuts and bolts so annoyingly has put me at a standstill and I now have to find and order them from porsche and wait till there in??

At at least all the other bits and pieces I have kept here at home so should all be still with me as I bagged them up pretty officiantly to my supprise when I had a rumadge through the other week??

Atb
daniel ??

 

[PSH]

That's good news...photobucket seems to be playing tricks just now...I had trouble getting in...strangely I did a test on another forum and managed to insert a picture from photobucket? I then tried to reinsert one to replace a corrupted image in my build thread here which failed...lol The images are accessible by right-clicking but not sure how you do this using a mobile or if it's even possible??

regards

Pete

 

[Eldavo]

Hi eldavo,

im going to hopefully get a bit of time later today to make a few enquiries as I’ve also found last night one that’s only up the road from me but I’ve never heard of them Enfield turbos ?

How much did it cost you eldavo?

Can‘t remember off the top of my head - think it was £4-500 all in, maybe less. Will dig the paperwork out when I get home next week, currently in Mexico on holiday!