Learning to Drive

[Guest]

I've been offered a trackday for my birthday but I'm not sure that's what I really want! My feeling is that I'm still scared of my car!!

What I really need is to have someone in my car pushing me / demonstrating and actually learning how it handles. The car is my pride and joy so I don't totally thrash it but I want to be a faster safer road driver and learn the limits of the car. Ideally I'd do this on an airfield so that there's nothing to hit if I go wrong, but I'd like some sort of road use as well (no blind corners on an airfield!)

Spending the day sideways looks like a lot of fun but I'm not sure what I would actually learn!

Whilst I am in the north I am happy to travel - anyone got any thoughts / advice

Regards

Roy

 

[Guest]

Do a track day. Be prepared to look a bit of a pratt (very few of us are naturals at it), do enjoy yourself, don't push too hard in the beginning, try and avoid all day going sideways (doesn't do the tyres/your heart rate too much good).

You will learn a lot even if you drive slowly - and you will have fun !

 

[Guest]

In my experience you will find it very difficult to spend the whole day sideways. Two exceptions to that rule:

1. You have no fear/sense of own mortality/respect for your car
2. You have someone sitting beside you encouraging you to go faster and you succumb to the red mist.

Even in these cases, you are more likely to spin than to drive sideaways all day. Beginners (in 99.9% of cases) don't spend any time going sideways - unless they spin.

If you treat a track day like fast road driving there is nothing to fear but yourself. Giving yourself some strict rules helps. Stuff like: always do a warm up lap, always do a cool down lap, no more than 15 minute/10 lap sessions, come in if you feel anything strange, no impromptu racing. Mentally recite it like a mantra before each session. It sounds like bullsh!t but this stuff works. Racer drivers have the perfect lap planned in their head and have an plan of what they are going to do on each lap of each session. The less experience you have the more important this stuff is.

The last one is perhaps the most important. A track day is to a large extent a personal thing. Set yourself realistic goals (like bring it home in one piece, experience some controllable understeer and oversteer ie., a small slip angle, learn the racing line, get closer to the point of lock-up on braking, learn something about your car, learn something useful about driving) and feel happy to acheive those goals. If I ever get into trouble its because I get competitive and try a little too hard to catch or pass someone. If I concentrate on me, I am very safe. If the focus is personal you should be happy to let faster cars thru and to learn something by following. If your number 1 goal is to bring it home in own piece you should be happy not to get every last possible minute of track time. I often sit out the last hour or last session because mistakes happen at the end of the day - besides, you may get an interesting passenger ride. I have packed up and gone home at lunchtime when the weather has been really bad, even though it may be a very expensive track day.

BTW, where is the track day you have been offered - it makes a difference. I have often recommended people try Bedford Autodrome as a first timer as there is nothing to hit and it is an easy track to get a reasonable mastery of.

HTH
Richard

 

[Mrkjblue]

I think Richard has it covered there and I couldnt agree more with he's points.
Go slow and smooth and just follow the line and the speed will come fairly easy. (a cliche but true)
On my first track day I had 10-15mins tuition as soon as the track opened and it helped me alot for the rest of the day as it was just incredible how far I my normal driving was from the actuall limits of the car also its very handy for some one to show you the lines first time out. So I would suggest the same plus an extra 15 mins around the mid day part to build on what you have done and give a focus for the afternoon.
As for being scared of your car [] I remember that feeling the first few months I was expecting it to spin at nearly every corner, too many stories in the press/pub, I guarantee* just half an hour of good tuition will cure that.
Airfield days are cheaper and it seems there is less to hit but there is still other cars out there and the condition of the road surfaces can be pretty poor leading to stone chips and nackered tyres.


*Total cost of advice will be refunded if fear is still evident

 

[Guest]

Airfields are cheap but minor damage is often more likely. Because they usually create corners with cones/tyres/plastic barriers you actually have zero run-off before you hit someone vaguely solid - at least solid enough to dent or scratch. Most real circuits have decent run-off with nothing to hit and then, after some distance, something very solid. If you are just starting a circuit can actually be safer with its gravel traps and high grip tarmac run-offs. There are exceptions like Goodwood (which scares me silly) and the odd corner here and there with little run-off. There is also grit to worry about and very rough abrasive tarmac.

I recommend instruction at session 2/3 so you at least know where the circuit goes before the instructor starts shouting "GO, GO, GO..." and grabbing the steering wheel (ask me how I know). The first session is usually very slow, if not in fact controlled by instructors, so all you do is concentrate on whether its left or right for the next bend and where to brake.

I would also recommend going to a PCGB day as the driving standard and courtesy are very good (not necessarily very fast but very safe). Some other outfits attract all manner of punters with cheap disposable cars and massive egos. Consequently your Porsche becomes a "target" for "scalps".

RB

 

[Guest]

No track day booked yet - in fact I've got to organise it myself. As you can imagine it would be very difficult for the Mrs to decide what to get! I'd though of Bedford myself as I've heard good reports and was impressed when I visited

Any thoughts on going for the 'one to one' tuition (Don Palmer etc) - I've read that this can be very hard on the car as 'mechanical sympathy' can be somewhat lacking but it may be an option

Cheers

Roy

 

[Guest]

Roy,
I too have been thinking of a track day v/v tuition - don't know where you are in the UK but if you are based in the south then may I suggest you look at www.masterclass.uk.net, who I have no business interest in - but I do count Berard Aubry as a friend. He take you on a half or full day driving tuition and sometimes uses the test track facility at Chobham. Its not "flash" like a race curcuit, but I have no doubt that your road driving will improve ten-fold !

 

[Guest]

Just done my first track day (in my 3.2 anyway) 2 weeks ago at brands hatch, booked through easytrack.co.uk. very helpful people when you get to the track, everyone 'mucks in'.

just make sure you let a little pressure out of your tyres before, as they heat up a fair bit. 10 laps was about my cars brakes limit, seemed to blow a bit of fluid out the expansion/overflow hose, so i had to come in to top it up.

Only had one spin myself and that was due to not heeling and toeing quick enough going into druids, second gear locked the back up and I span out, greeaaaatt!!!

When you start to push the car after a few laps I found it tends to understeer rather than 'rse out' oversteer.

good laugh though, and you are encouraged to go at your own pace. any 'funny business' by other drivers is severly frowned upon, so no need to worry.

Mark

 

[Guest]

Its a while since I have done an Easytrack day so things may have got better. It was never bad or dangerous, but in the past I have followed a couple drivers (Subaru STi and Ferrari 328) on Easytrack days and they have refused to pull over. Red mist ensured that I passed them anyway - with no harm done - but it shouldn't have to be that way. In the many PCGB days I have attended I have never been blocked like this - there is just a slightly different attitude.

Mark is absolutely right about understeer being a dominant characteristic. You have to carry a lot of speed into and through the corner to get an oversteer attitude (unless you are brutal) in these cars. This is why track day regulars usually run 7 inch front wheels which give a more stretched tyre and a wider track plus alignments that are max front negative camber. A bigger rear sway bar is also a plus and if adjustable can be used to fine tune the balance.

If you ever get the chance to ride in/drive a fully rose-jointed, wide- track race 911 you will see that the turn-in and front end grip are the major differences compared to road cars.

RB

 

[Guest]

While tearing around a closed circuit is great fun, learning to drive the 911 in every day situations is more vital.
There are plenty of driving coaches around, but there are a couple who are lovers of the 911.
One guy, who I have had in my 911 is Mark Kenrick.
See his web site at;
http://www.bespokedrivertraining.co.uk/
Mark trains various police depts high speed pursuit techniques.
Mark spent time with John Lyon, Mr Lyon is a very highly regarded coach, also a 911 lover, and written varoius books.
Check it out.[8D]

 

[nfearn]

You could also consider either the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) or the RoSPA Advanced Drivers Association (RoADA) both of whom have local groups who will provide free tuition to help you pass their respective tests.

I mention these because spending money with the top trainers as a first step can be an expensive way of learning the basics, i.e. the system of car control. For road driving, John Lyon of the High Performance Course (and doubtless all of the other advanced road trainers) will want to instill this and other things before moving onto the more advanced road tehniques. Hence mastering "the system" before spending serious money with John et al will give you better value for money, and a more enjoyable time with the advanced training.

For my money, I would try to find a RoADA group since the standard for the top grade attainable on the test (Gold) is higher than that required for an IAM pass. RoADA will therefore push you more if they feel you can obtain a higher grade whereas most IAM groups will get you to test standard and then move onto another trainee.

With either group you can of course continue to hone your skills by driving with the more experienced members of the group and/or beccoming an observer and helping other people to pass the test.

Ultimately though, I would imagine most keen road drivers would want to blood themselves (metaphorically speaking ;-) ) on the High Performance Course. The best part about is is being able to join the High Performance Club if you pass the course. This opens up a whole range of driving-oriented events including driving holidays in Scotland, Northumberland, France and Germany, ice-driving in Sweden and much more.

Feel free to e-mail me direct if you'd like more info.

HPC www.hpc2001.co.uk (the course)
www.hpc.org.uk (the club)
IAM www.iam.org.uk
RoADA www.rospa.org.uk

regards
Nick Fearn
Asst Reg Sec, 944 Register

 

[Guest]

Sounds a bit like hard work (and school) compared to just paying your money and letting her rip on a track day...

YMMV

 

[nfearn]

Sure there's some learning involved, but it's worth it. Very few of us can expect to learn by experience the skills and attitudes that have been distilled over the last 60 or more years by those with the most interest in safe and progressive driving - there's just not enough time in a single lifetime to work it all out.

Good instruction and much practice will make for safer, smoother, possibly (even probably) quicker, more enjoyable and more relaxing driving on the road, which is, after all, where we spend 95% or more of our driving time.

In fact, the only thing that surprises me about skilled road driving is that so few owners of higher performance cars ever bother to improve their skills beyond a combination of those required for the basic test and those which experience teaches us.

So, possibly not as much fun in the short term, but longer term it's a very worthwhile skillset which I very much regret not learning about earlier in my driving career.

regards
Nick

 

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for the input, although to be honest I'm still undecided of what to do!

I think if I had available funds I would do one of the 'cover everything courses' but that is likely to cost over £2K plus accommodation etc so is not on the cards at the moment. Nicks suggestion sounded good - I've used 'Roadcraft' techniques for years - but I was concerned by the following passage

"Advanced drivers must demonstrate the ability to control their vehicles safely at speeds up to the legal limits. A driving plan that relies on exceeding the speed limit to complete a manoeuvre is unacceptable. If you consistently exceed the speed limit the examiner will stop the test and you will fail."

My big problem with speed cameras is that you spend more time watching your speed than watching your driving. If I'm overtaking I want to get past rather than watch that I don't exceed a speed limit. (sorry if this is not P.C. but it honestly reflects how I drive)

Currently I'm considering a 'Porsche only' track day with tuition or some one to one tuition with a private facility. I'll let you know what I go for, how it works out, and what it all cost in the end (don't hold your breath though - my middle name is procrastinate!)

Cheers

Roy

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: nfearn

Sure there's some learning involved, but it's worth it. Very few of us can expect to learn by experience the skills and attitudes that have been distilled over the last 60 or more years by those with the most interest in safe and progressive driving - there's just not enough time in a single lifetime to work it all out.

Good instruction and much practice will make for safer, smoother, possibly (even probably) quicker, more enjoyable and more relaxing driving on the road, which is, after all, where we spend 95% or more of our driving time.

In fact, the only thing that surprises me about skilled road driving is that so few owners of higher performance cars ever bother to improve their skills beyond a combination of those required for the basic test and those which experience teaches us.

So, possibly not as much fun in the short term, but longer term it's a very worthwhile skillset which I very much regret not learning about earlier in my driving career.

regards
Nick

I would love to learn something new. Tell me 5 important things about road driving that I don't already know []

 

[nfearn]

Roy

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments concerning speed cameras. I'm almost convinced that the failure to reduce fatalities in 2003 compared to 02 is at least partially due to the diversion of attention from hazards and onto absolute speed.

Re the quotation from the IAM site, they can hardly be seen to be promoting law-breaking.

The point is though that, having mastered the Roadcraft way of driving with the IAM or RoADA, you can then go on to train with less PC organisations. You can go straight to the HPCs of this world, but you might be spending money re-learning something you could have learned for free with the IAM/RoADA.

Many IAM and RoADA members are also HPC members of course. In fact, I would say that the majority of HPC members are in one or both of the above, and many members observe and sit on the local committees etc of these organisations.

regards
Nick

 

[nfearn]

Richard

You must be the exception that proves the rule, I guess.

Are you self taught, or have you had some tuition somewhere?

Either way, try these:

i) Straight undivided single carriageway road in the countryside. Short, white dashed markings in the centre. In the distance they become longer dashes, though nothing else changes as far as you can see. What would that tell you?

ii) Where are red countdown markers used? (III, II, I in other words?)

iii) What's the "limit point"?

iv) Are there any benefits to double declutching on a car with an all synchromesh gearbox?

v) What's an engineer's bend?

If you get more than 3 without looking the answers up [] you are doing pretty well.

cheers
Nick

 

[Guest]

I couldn't agree with Nick more...
You are never to old to learn more.
I've just received John Lyon's book which he co-wrote back in 1988, for the Porsche GB group. The book is based around the then latest 911, the 3.2.[]
From what I have read so far ( only got it yesterday), its a great book - its got something for everyone. It also has lots of great colour photo's (for Richard).
Found it on Ebay.[]
Keep on truckin'

 

[Guest]

Can I have a go?

1 Hazard approaching

2 Not sure whether I've understood correctly but are you referring to the concealed level crossing markers?

3 It's the limit of view taught in Police Driving courses - where the left and right hand kerbs meet - theory is that you keep the limit point within stopping distance

4 Jury's out - generally thought to be a waste of time. Likely to be smoother and could, in theory, prevent changes in torque which may cause problems in slippery conditions

5 Sorry don't know this one - as an engineer myself there are all sorts of things I could refer to but not in this context!

Cheers

Roy

 

[nfearn]

Roy

That's really pretty good.

i) Yep, the long lines are "Hazard Warning Lines" and denote a hazard of some description. In this context, it's reasonably likely to be a minor junction from the left or right, assuming you can't see anything else to give you a clue. Roads approaching from the either side can often be "detected" in advance by looking for lines of trees, telegraph poles and/or lights at the junction.

ii) Exactly. The crossing doesn't need to be concealed as such but could be around a bend or somesuch. Not one in 10 people will get this right on average.

iii) Yes, although I would advocate keeping your stopping distance to enable you to stop before the limit point ;-). I know what you meant tho'.
Considering the limit point is also the only consistently safe method for determining cornering speed in road situations.

iv) It saves wear on the synchromesh itself, and I think promotes early thought about what gear is appropriate for the circumstances. Planning ahead is one of the hallmarks of the advanced driver.

v) A constant radius bend, i.e. one that's been designed rather than just following the edge of a field or whatever.

You are obviously a keen and thoughtful driver, and would very probably enjoy some further training.

rgds
Nick