Lindsay MAF Kit. Anyone running one of these?

[Lemon]

Hi

I currently have a Promax Level 2 Kit fitted to my car.

It is running the standard AFM and would like to upgrade to a MAF at some point.

Has anyone used the Lindsay MAF + Mafterburner kit?

Would this be a plug and play? Any experience of setting these up.
Better alternatives?

Thanks

Lee

 

[Suffolk944]

Hi Lee,

I was planning to get exactly this done a few weeks ago while my car was in getting the KW's fitted and getting a few things fettled as well. Promax tried to make some enquiries on my behalf to LR checking a few things out and got virtually zero response from them. Consequently I am now looking to get a Vitesse MAF which I believe is considered a better bit of kit and their customer service and support (from my experience at least so far) seems much better than LR.

 

[sawood12]

The experience from Rennlist is that the LR MAF kit is a decent piece of kit and many have got good results from it, but my research lead me to the conclusion that the LR MAF kit is a bit more tricky to set up - the Vittesse kit basically being about as plug and play as you can get considering you're making such a fundamental change to the Motrinic system, but once the LR kit is set up it works well. I bascially came to the conclusion the Vitesse kit was better because Dave at Vitesse actually manufactures and develops everything so knows it inside out and can help out with good advice for any applicaton - even if it is an unusual application, the piggy back seemed to be integrated much better with the Vitesse kit and I think the features on the Vitesse kit are more plentiful (e.g. ignition mapping according to MAP and boost control) and work. The LR is a kit that LR have pulled together from a load of off the shelf parts and made to work and I don't think it is 'True MAF' - it is more of a signal massager - i.e. converts the MAF signal to AFM signal. I think the Vitesse kit is the only True MAF piggy back kit out there.

Go on, i'm probably a bit behind the curve as it is a while since i've had my eye off the ball on this, but that was the gist I got from my research into the two kits.

 

[edh]

Scott is absolutely right - Vitesse is the one to go for. Very easy to install & works right out of the box without the piggyback - also has loads of other features that you can use if you're interested.

FWIW I still have the "stealth" adapter for the airbox if you don't like the induction / dump valve noise you get witha MAF / J Pipe / Cone filter

 

[barks944]

The vitesse MAF comes with a new set of chips doesnt it? How do you ensure the chip has the right map for your car without having the piggyback to tune it?

Edit: It's true MAF isnt it, which means that it doesnt need a map so to speak?!

 

[barks944]

MAF is Mass Air Flow and AFM is Air Flow Meter. The difference being the MAF measures the mass of air whereas an AFM measures the speed of the air flow. Mass of air is more usefull as it is directly related to how much fuel you want to inject. Air speed requires other parameters to be measured so you can work out the air mass.

 

[TTM]

The Vitesse kit comes with a chipboard that replaces the DME chip. In the KLR box you keep the original KLR chip.

The DME chipboard includes several "base" fuel maps adapted to the customer's engine setup that Vitesse will implement in the chipboard from their database. 8 map settings are supplied and consist of a combinatin of ignition advance, quantity of fuel, use of MAP sensor.
I have found that the fueling on the base maps implemented on the chipboard was a on the safe side and the car will run fine but a tad rich in any conditions (cruise, WOT, part throttle, light/heavy boost).
If plugging the piggyback the fueling of the base maps in the chipboard is disabled and you make your own fuel map starting with a blank map, but you can still combine the chipboard in function of fuel grade, ignition, etc (The FQS switch on the DME box is still active, so you can further adjust fuel and ignition).
The piggyback also allows for setting the rev limit and the functions allowed by the use of a MAP sensor such as overboost protection and boost regulation.

So far I think the Vitesse kit it a good product in the sense it is easy to adjust the fueling in real time. Vitesse are very responsive and helpful in answering various questions. But then I have not fiddled with any other EMS yet so I can't really judge it.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: barks944

The vitesse MAF comes with a new set of chips doesnt it? How do you ensure the chip has the right map for your car without having the piggyback to tune it?

John at Vitesse supplies a chip board with a number of maps on it and in my experience they are so close to where you want to be that you only need the piggyback if you have something a little different. With my 3.2 litre engine and very quick spooling turbo he supplied a map that was almost spot on (just slightly rich for safety like Thoms)

One of the major benefits of MAF is that it removes the very restrictive 'barn door' flap that is inside the standard AFM. The MAF simply has a heated wire inside the tube that calculates the amount of air passing over it by how it cools. The AFM has a metal flap that completely blocks the air flow, but is gradually opened as air passes through it. This is very restrictive and also increases the lag effect as it takes time to open

 

[marcoturbo]

You watch too much ebay auctions

As many people have already said, Vitesse provides good product and more great support.

 

[barks944]

I guess doing a map for a MAF setup is much easier than for a non MAP setup. My reason being that you specify the AFR you want under certain conditions. When off boost you just say that you want 14.7 AFR or w/e and then you richen it up when the boost kicks in. Its not like writing a map for a standard car where you are directly specifying how much fuel to inject withour knowing how much air is being sucked into the engine.

 

[rholt]

Paul, I've also been considering the LR MAF - mainly on price grounds - but am now having seond thoughts. Do you have contact details for Vitesse - can't seem to find a website.

 

[edh]

http://www.vitesseracing.com/

 

[billus99]

havent even got round to considering this sort of thing for mine, yet, but sounds like i need to investigate! what sort of cost is involved?

 

[barks944]

Is it really worth paying this kind of money for MAF conversion etc. You could go for a whole new engine management system for the price of the MAF conversion maybe a little bit more, esp if you get the piggyback and VMAX.

 

[sawood12]

You still need maps with MAF - the MAF is just a sensor, the ECU still needs to be told what to do given the various inputs from all the sensors around the engine - that what a map is. It basically says - when sensor 1 reads this, sensor 2 reads this, sensor 3 reads this...... then provide this much fuel, do this with the ignition timing etc. A map is basically a look up table against all the various parameters the ECU takes into consideration.

The Vitesse piggy back kit basically takes this logic out of the motronic, does all the clever stuff, then hooks back into the motronic to effect the changes.

Whilst it is true you don't necessarily need the piggy back, i'd still have it. All the good functionality that John at Vitesse has built in happens in the piggy back - it is so much more than a simple device to tweak fuelling. With the new v-flex software the piggy back can map ignition timing according to boost pressure and do other things as well. Without the piggy back you've simply got a MAF conversion kit - a very good one having said that.

The benefit of true MAF is you can adjust boost pressure to your hearts content and not change the maps or tuning and you'll get exactly the same fuelling and state of tune. With MAF to AFM signal converters you have to map for a specific boost pressure and you cannot deviate from that boost pressure or your fuelling will be out as the sensor is not integrated fully such that the motronic can make sense of the information and deal with it. MAF to AFM signal converters is like converting 3D into 2D - its MAF, but not as we know it.

I can't remember the short falls of the VR kit - i'm not saying it isn't good, but from what I gathered from my research it took some setting up and you had to re-tune if you changed anything like boost pressures, or even if you bolted on a new turbo - which suggests to me it is not true MAF. Not sure if this kit has been developed further.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: barks944

Is it really worth paying this kind of money for MAF conversion etc. You could go for a whole new engine management system for the price of the MAF conversion maybe a little bit more, esp if you get the piggyback and VMAX.

a new standalone managment would require mapping and that could cost a lot more. There are some tweaks required to get the best from the engine, which may take a long time to find. You will need to interface to the engine sensors or re-engineer new ones. I think you would be looking at close to twice the cost and possibly with less performance in the end depending on the skill of the person doing the mapping.

Tony

 

[sawood12]

I agree with Tony. To get the best out of standalone you'll need to add extra sensors and tune it. The results will be better if you take advantage of the extra features on offer (fully sequential injection, CDI ignition), if not the results wont be much better than the Vitesse kit if at all. If you were doing a project where you were building a car from the ground up then it might be worth considering as you could build your own engine loom to accommodate the extra sensors and do a proper job of it. But tuning still requires alot of dyno time and road time data logging. A great project if you've got the time.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: barks944

Is it really worth paying this kind of money for MAF conversion etc. You could go for a whole new engine management system for the price of the MAF conversion

This is totally true, and ultimately a Standalone would probably get better results.

However the Vitesse Racing MAF is designed specifically for a 944, it takes less than an hour to install and it works immediately, end of story. If you have any problems or questions, then the actual designer of it replies to your email almost immediately (if he's awake []).

All the standalones require a heck of a lot of installation and even more time setting up. Everything's a trade off and you get what you pay for. Unfortunately the pound/dollar rate is not good at the moment so the Vitesse Racing kit seems even more expensive. Wait until it's back over 2 dollars to the pound and it is more affordable []

 

[Lemon]

Thanks everyone, just sat and read you replies.[]

Well it looks like Vitesse then for me.

Time to leave some print outs of the Vitesse website on the kitchen table in the hope that Father Xmas is good to me this year[]

So am I correct in thinking you need the Vitesse MAF at $1250 and the V Flex software at $695 or does the MAF kit come ready to plug and play.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

All the standalones require a heck of a lot of installation and even more time setting up.

This is one of my personal theories when the first thing I hear from other people with tuned cars is.. are you running stand alone engine management?

Everyone seems to know someone who can 'easily' set up various engine management systems and get them 'spot on'.

...who actually owns, has ever owned or has ever known anyone who's owned a car running stand alone mangement that ran as well as a standard car? I have NEVER seen a road car running one that doesn't have problems or need further work. Honestly I think they cause WAY more harm than good.

On the flip side people have seen big improvements from the Vitesse maf's and I've never been in one with a tuning problem.