lindsey 340 BHP kit

[Ellisd]

Has anyone installed one of these kits? http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LR&Category_Code=944PACK340.

i was wondering how difficult it would be to have 2 maps set up. (one for performannce and then a second for say trundling round town, or when my mother borrows the car so she doesn't plant it into a wall).

 

[Diver944]

The FQS (fuel quality switch) in the DME can be used to save different maps, but it is a bit fiddly to keep accessing the DME and 'twiddling' the tiny screw that differentiates the setting.

Some electronic boost controllers (like the Greddy Profec B spec II) have a HI and LO boost setting which also has an external output which theoretically can be used to switch the FQS for you. I don't know of anyone who has actually done this yet, but it is something I am thinking of for a lower boost on wet track days.

 

[Ellisd]

i had a feeling an electronic boost controller would be need lol, I originaly was thinking of getting the electronic boost controller and just using the boost but then i remembered that the fuel would need changinf as well

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Ellisd

I originaly was thinking of getting the electronic boost controller and just using the boost but then i remembered that the fuel would need changinf as well

This is one (of the many ) things I don't quite understand.

If you have a MAF or MAP which has been mapped for a max of 1.5 bar of boost but you turn the boost down to 1 bar, surely the sonsor now measures that you only have 1 bar and dispenses the fuel accordingly [&:]

 

[sawood12]

This whole subject still confuses the hell out of me. A fuel map doesn't know what levels of boost you are running and therefore has assumptions built into the map. My Promax chips for example apparently can run between 1 bar and 1.2 bar boost but surely I would be running leaner at 1.2 bar than at 1 bar as the DME has no idea what your actual boost level is???

With a MAF and AFM the higher the boost the more volume of air is measured being inducted into the engine. The mass of air is then calculated by the DME therefore is this how the DME determines boost as the higher the boost the more mass of air is inducted at a given RPM and therefore the more fuel is needed?

In anycase I would have thought that limiting perfomance by controlling boost is the best way to go because the ECU should command the right amount of fuel given the amount of air inducted into the engine. However this wouldn't work the other way round as the fuel map in the DME doesn't control boost - unless anyone has sussed out how to connect an EBC into the DME so it could be controlled by the DME.

 

[Ellisd]

i think when i get everything sorted i'll set up the normal boost level as being the high, then a lower level as well (maybe just a couple psi over atmos). I've got an autometer air/fuel ratio gauge to go in so if it's running rich when on low boost i'll know, and will be back to the drawing board.

 

[ross255]

I can tell you for fact, that I have a vitesse maf, and if I run 18psi, or use my electronic boost controller (greddy something or other) and turn the boost down to 10psi, I always get the right amount of fuel.

This is not guesswork, I have actually logged the wideband.

It doesnt need to know boost, as it calculates fuel according to air. i.e. when you run 18psi, its flowing more air than at 10 psi.

The stock system uses this principal. The throttle switch on a 944 does not give an exact degree of throttle opening, so it calculates fuel according to air. i.e. I dont think it can tell if the throttle is a quarter, or half open, but it does know how much air is flowing through the meter.

 

[Ellisd]

i've discovered that the pigback ECU that comes with the Lindsey kit has two maps that are switchable on the fly. If the greddy electronic boost controller has a switch function, when i changed to the different boost it will automatically change the fuel map. This will give me that little bit extra confidence than just relying on the MAF.

With that sorted, what problems would become apparent to sticking this kit onto a totaly standard engine (in good mechanical order and regularly serviced)

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: Ellisd

I originaly was thinking of getting the electronic boost controller and just using the boost but then i remembered that the fuel would need changinf as well

This is one (of the many ) things I don't quite understand.

If you have a MAF or MAP which has been mapped for a max of 1.5 bar of boost but you turn the boost down to 1 bar, surely the sonsor now measures that you only have 1 bar and dispenses the fuel accordingly [&:]

The standard AFM (barn door) maxes out (fully open) at about 4,000 rpm after that it is relying on the programming on the chip in the ecu to approximate the fuelling/ignition relative to the rpm/ throttle position.

A MAP or MAF can allow the the airflow to be measured more accurately all the way through the rev range.

Most MAFs for the 944 replicate the original air flow meter signal - i.e. maxing out at 4,000 rpm then relying on the chips to have pre programmed guestimates of fuel/ignition for each combination of throttle position / rpm (or custom chip developed on the rollers)

The vittesse MAF/chipset allows incoming airflow to be measured all the way through the rev range so the fuelling can be maintained correctly more like an aftermarket ECU (Motek, etc etc.). Though with MAF or standard AFM if you have a boost leak after the incoming air is measured you will still run rich.

After market engine managment with MAF should allow the same (measurement of incoming air throughout the rev range).
After market engine managment with MAP looks at the pressure in the inlet manifold and converts this to info on the amount of air going into the engine (measurement of air throughout the rev range). This will also compensate for boost leaks, dump to atmosphere dump valves etc.

The link MAP kit (guru) tried to convert a MAP signal to replicate the standard barn door AFM. I believe the promax (chip wizards) MAP conversion does the same more reliably using BMW components.

Tony

 

[944Turbo]

The piggy back allows you to massage the fuel (and possibly ignition) settings to suit the 2 different boost levels. It will probably need some rolling road time to set up correctly (at least a wideband set up in the car - preferably with datalogging). I would be suprised if it gives you 340 rwhp on the rollers of truth.
IMHO the tial wastegate is superior to the lindsey one. I believe that exhaust is mild steel.
Tony

 

[sawood12]

The Tial wastegate is definately better made than the Lindsay one but ultimately both will do the same job. The problem with the Lindsay wastegate is that there is a risk that the cast body of the wastegate can develop cracks which mean you end up with a leaky wastegate. Having spoken to both Lindsay and Paragon they reckon that this is still quite a rare thing. The problem with the Tial is that it's weight is supported by the exhaust system which can cause problems with cracking of the exhaust. I'm not sure if anyone on this forum has managed to fabricate a support bracket for the Tial but it would be a useful thing. I think if I were to do it again i'd go for the Tial because it's better manufactured and cheaper than the Lindsay option if you don't get your core charge back. My car when set to standard boost levels (0.75bar) with stock chips got 240bhp on the rollers of truth, that's 20bhp more than the day the car rolled off the production line so the Linday wastegate works perfectly fine.

 

[944Turbo]

Superior because it is new not remanufactured but new - they should both work fine but one will last longer, and yes I adapted my standard bracket to add some support.

 

[Ellisd]

i think the exhaust is mild steel, although i may see if we can agree on a price to make it stainless. Only problem i can think now is the head gasket. Can a stock one run safely at over 300bhp? Linsey say as long as you don't run over 18psi of boost but i'm convinced.

Thanks for everyones inpu by the way. Its forums like this that make cars like these almost affordable for me, a 944 wouldn't be an option if it had to go to the dealer every time something went wrong

 

[Diver944]

If it's still the original head gasket it may be prudent to change it now, as it will wear out eventually and increased boost 'could' just tip it over the edge. Saying that I don't think I have ever heard of someones gasket going immediately that they have upped the boost a little.

Gaskets normally blow because of lean running conditions or too much boost. The most mildly modded of Turbos are running at 18psi without any problems so as long as your air fuel ratio is safe then a standard head gasket will be fine.

 

[Ellisd]

or thats good to hear. I'm always worried about my cars running lean so i always have a gauge to monitor it. With this kit i'll be hoping to do datalog tuning runs (in a safe location of course) to make sure i'm getting a constant hi 12 to low 13 to 1 ratio, as I always prefer not being right edge of tuning (ie 12.5:1 which i believe is where the highest performance can be found) i'd rather run slightly richer and be confident i'm not going to melt anything in the engine

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: Ellisd

I originaly was thinking of getting the electronic boost controller and just using the boost but then i remembered that the fuel would need changinf as well

This is one (of the many ) things I don't quite understand.

If you have a MAF or MAP which has been mapped for a max of 1.5 bar of boost but you turn the boost down to 1 bar, surely the sonsor now measures that you only have 1 bar and dispenses the fuel accordingly [&:]

The standard AFM (barn door) maxes out (fully open) at about 4,000 rpm after that it is relying on the programming on the chip in the ecu to approximate the fuelling/ignition relative to the rpm/ throttle position.

A MAP or MAF can allow the the airflow to be measured more accurately all the way through the rev range.

Most MAFs for the 944 replicate the original air flow meter signal - i.e. maxing out at 4,000 rpm then relying on the chips to have pre programmed guestimates of fuel/ignition for each combination of throttle position / rpm (or custom chip developed on the rollers)

The vittesse MAF/chipset allows incoming airflow to be measured all the way through the rev range so the fuelling can be maintained correctly more like an aftermarket ECU (Motek, etc etc.). Though with MAF or standard AFM if you have a boost leak after the incoming air is measured you will still run rich.

After market engine managment with MAF should allow the same (measurement of incoming air throughout the rev range).
After market engine managment with MAP looks at the pressure in the inlet manifold and converts this to info on the amount of air going into the engine (measurement of air throughout the rev range). This will also compensate for boost leaks, dump to atmosphere dump valves etc.

The link MAP kit (guru) tried to convert a MAP signal to replicate the standard barn door AFM. I believe the promax (chip wizards) MAP conversion does the same more reliably using BMW components.

Tony

I would have thought that with the SciVision MAF accompanied by the SciVision ECU chips the fuel will be mapped to the air inducted throughout the rev range - but it is worth checking out.

Hasn't the Link MAP kit taken a bit of a slating?

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

......Hasn't the Link MAP kit taken a bit of a slating?

It has and perhaps fairly in some cases. The main problem with the Link is the cells are too large at 500 rpm increments. Because it interpolates the transition between the cells, surrounding cells impact on the fuelling changes. Many have seen the bizarre fuelling produced by the Link - see Ricks site for examples. I have, to some extent, managed to dampen the erratic peaks and troughs often found on the Link with careful attention to cell transition. It isn't perfect, and is very time consuming, but it can be done.

While the Link is by no means perfect I am more comfortable with MAP as it accommodates any leaks without issue.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I would have thought that with the SciVision MAF accompanied by the SciVision ECU chips the fuel will be mapped to the air inducted throughout the rev range - but it is worth checking out.

I don't know so I'm being slightly careful here, but if the SciVision MAF is a direct replacement for the AFM to the extent that the DME thinks it's an AFM and it doesn't need a chip change to run with the MAF (which I believe is the case for Turbos running standard boost and NA cars, except some 911 models) then it would seem unlikely that it avoids any shortcomings of the AFM in terms of measurement range.

Put it another way if the MAF is a transparent direct replacement then it must read 5v (or 0v if it's inverse) at the same air flow as the AFM and if that threshold is reached at 4,000rpm (albeit throttle opening is also a factor) then it has no ability to measure any more air flow as the DME expects and can deal with output only in the 0-5v range. Actually I don't know if it's 0-5v (which is standard for most sensors and for aftermarket ECUs but not how the 944 Turbo throttle position sensor works for example), but even if it isn't the same principle applies to whatever range the DME works with.

 

[sawood12]

It makes perfect sense what you say Fen, I was hoping that the small computer that is part of the SciVision set up combined with the SciVision chips might somehow get around this limitation but it sounds like it's built into the fundamental framework of the DME/KLR ECU. If this is true it has put me off the SciVision MAF kit. There is no point in going to the trouble and expense of a MAF when you are getting not getting the full benefit above 4k RPM.

The limitations on the Link MAP sounds a bit surprising also. Assuming the people who develop these kits effectively in their garden sheds are pretty clever and knowledgable people but to limit the resolution of the kit to 500RPM seems very crude to me a best - i.e. you effectively only have 12/13 active map points through the whole rev range and alot of guess work inbetween.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: sawood12



....The limitations on the Link MAP sounds a bit surprising also. .......to limit the resolution of the kit to 500RPM seems very crude to me a best - i.e. you effectively only have 12/13 active map points through the whole rev range and alot of guess work inbetween.

Not quite as the cells are also referenced relative to manifold pressure in 20kPa (5 psi) intervals. You are playing within a field of 144 cells although, in reality, the car will only access in the region of 50 to 60 of those cells. More than enough to cause all sorts of mayhem as I'm sure you can appreciate.

In addition to the above one can also play with 4 levels of acceleration enrichment during abrupt throttle or rapid MAP changes.