Medium Blacks - Big Blacks - The Difference
- Thread starter John Sims
- Start date
Oh yes [
]I was wondering if the greater diameter helps but, aside the increase in area I wonder if it is significantly better than the area nearer to the hub.
Obviously there is more leverage at the outer edge of the disc, but it is also traveling faster, and faster things are more difficult to stop. An interesting ponderance, but probably of little significance.
Anything bigger must be better - Big Blacks the Nº11 of 944 brakes. [
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sawood12
New member
I would guess it works like this:- Larger pads mean you don't need as much clamping force to achieve the same friction, as the clamping force is applied over a larger area, therefore less clamping force is needed for the same retardation, and therefore the maximum retardation capability is greater (tyre grip levels permitting of course). The physical larger mass of the disc and the calipers will help dissapate the heat more quickly.
I've read recently on Rennlist that the total piston area on the 6-pot mk2 GT3 calipers is actually less than the piston area on the Mk1 GT3/996 turbo calipers (which are the same as the big blacks/reds incidentally) but their capability is greater due to the huge surface area of the pads. I don't know if this is true but if it is, it's the same principle.
I've read recently on Rennlist that the total piston area on the 6-pot mk2 GT3 calipers is actually less than the piston area on the Mk1 GT3/996 turbo calipers (which are the same as the big blacks/reds incidentally) but their capability is greater due to the huge surface area of the pads. I don't know if this is true but if it is, it's the same principle.
random hero
New member
Scott are these the same pads ive just got ??
sawood12
New member
They are the same pads (i.e. EBC Red Stuff Ceramics) but are a bit dirtier than the ones in the photo - although I'm sure they'll clean up if you could be bothered!
Obviously they are not the same pad in terms of part number as they are for the early 220 turbo/S2 calipers.
Check out page 51 of Decembers PP. It has a nice photo comparing the 220 turbo/S2 pads with the biggish blacks and the big blacks. I'd scan it in but the scanner is currently in the babies nursery and she's asleep. I wouldn't do anything to risk waking her up for all the tea in China because I probably wouldn't be able to get her off to sleep again until about 4am!!
Obviously they are not the same pad in terms of part number as they are for the early 220 turbo/S2 calipers.
Check out page 51 of Decembers PP. It has a nice photo comparing the 220 turbo/S2 pads with the biggish blacks and the big blacks. I'd scan it in but the scanner is currently in the babies nursery and she's asleep. I wouldn't do anything to risk waking her up for all the tea in China because I probably wouldn't be able to get her off to sleep again until about 4am!!
random hero
New member
Already cleaned up and the discs are sanded down ready to paint when i can decide which colour !!
random hero
New member
I'm surprised i got them at all if you had seen the state of the box when it arrived, good job they are'nt fragile !!!
random hero
New member
It had foot prints on which wasnt a good start,i think because it was heavy it was just thrown about but at least everything was in one piece !!! Thanks again for sorting them out for me.
Don't know you guys, but we have had bad experience of EBC pads under 951's. Green ones melt and cracks very bad under track use. We have found same problem even with red pads. Now we use Ferodo, it has been the right choice, we have been satisfied.
We have tested these pads with the following vechiles:
951 with "baby" Brembos (about 280 hp)
951 S with S4 calipers (about 300 hp)
951 S with Big Blacks (about 350 hp)
We use now GT2 front & GT3 rear calipers
We have tested these pads with the following vechiles:
951 with "baby" Brembos (about 280 hp)
951 S with S4 calipers (about 300 hp)
951 S with Big Blacks (about 350 hp)
We use now GT2 front & GT3 rear calipers
Is it possible to let me know the references and compounds on the Ferodos?
The main reason I bought EBC's was because I knew they would fit - what I would like to do is build up a list of pad suppliers and their references against medium and big black/red calipers so others don't fall into the trap I did.
The main reason I bought EBC's was because I knew they would fit - what I would like to do is build up a list of pad suppliers and their references against medium and big black/red calipers so others don't fall into the trap I did.
Well John, barring a miracle and someone dropping from the clouds with a different solution I am going to join you in putting the Big Blacks on my car too. The more I look into it, the more they make sense in an overall way. The Big Blacks are better for our cars than the BigReds as they're designed for a front engined car for a start. They are much cheaper than the BR's. The total area of pad coverage goes from something like 112.5cm2 (Medium Blacks) up to 153cm2 but the rotor only goes up from 14lbs to 18lbs in weight as opposed to the GT3 mk1 which is almost the same pad area as the BB's but is double the Medium Blacks unsprung weight at 27lbs. Yes there is a greater rotor diameter but I said 'overall' the BB's represent the best upgrade. If there was a reliable way of getting a Monoblock setup onto the radial mounted system of the '89 or 's' version of our cars I would probably jump at it, but alas I can't find anyone who can help me here. So BB's here I come too.[]
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Diver944
Active member
As there has just been a similar discussion about brakes on the 968uk forum I thought I 'd post a link to what Mark Coles from the 993 Register did a few years ago. Basically if you use an 11m spacer for the calliper you can use the large BB 322mm disks with our S4 Callipers, or with a minor mod to the S4 callipers you can actually fit a BB brake pad in there too. I never did hear how he got on with it long term:
http://www.sandher.com/Mark_Cole_BrakesMod.htm
http://www.sandher.com/Mark_Cole_BrakesMod.htm
"Monoblock setup onto the radial mounted system of the '89 or 's' version of our cars I would probably jump at it, but alas I can't find anyone who can help me here. So BB's here I come too.[] "
Me and my friend have those monoblocks installed every corner of our 951's. Another friend have an S car and he is currently using my old Big Blacks, or Big Yellows since they have powdercoated yellow. He also would like to have GT2 six-pistons installed to front axle. So we are just developing a adapter which allows to bolt on GT2/996TT six piston calipers also to S cars. Most likely we have first setup ready march/april
] "Me and my friend have those monoblocks installed every corner of our 951's. Another friend have an S car and he is currently using my old Big Blacks, or Big Yellows since they have powdercoated yellow. He also would like to have GT2 six-pistons installed to front axle. So we are just developing a adapter which allows to bolt on GT2/996TT six piston calipers also to S cars. Most likely we have first setup ready march/april
sawood12
New member
Is this mod really worth the effort? The increase in unsprung weight in the BB upgrade is coming from the larger brake disk (or certainly the vast majority of the weight increase). I noticed negligable weight difference in the caliper between my 'baby blacks' and my big blacks (although I didn't weigh them, it was just my judgement with a caliper in each hand). So why go to the trouble to modify the medium blacks to accept the larger disc and pads? what are you gaining? apart from maybe a lower cost for the upgrade.
Patrick - i've been reading your thread on Rennlist but can't post anything because i'm not a member!! I think you were querying the cost difference between the big black caliper and the big red caliper. This cost difference is due to Porsche having to commission another production run of big reds and the increase in manufacturing costs over the years has lead to the increase in cost. The big blacks are still being sourced from the original production run therefore are cheaper. Other than that the only difference between big blacks and big reds, apart from the colour, is the U-shaped brake pipe is mounted on the other end as the big reds are mounted in front of the hub on the 993 turbo and behind the hub on the 928 GTS. Go for the BB's, they look the business and will provide all the braking capability you will ever need, so get them while stocks last and they are still cheap.
Having said that if I had the spare cash I would go for Oli's set up solely for the drool factor, but at £350 per disc I would soon tire of the disc replacement costs!!
Olli, would the adapter that you're working on allow the fitting of the old GT3 mk caliper as well?
Scott, thanks for the info. It's nice to get some explanation for something seemingly inexplicable! Now that Olli may have something in the wind I may have to wait to find out what that something is???
Scott, thanks for the info. It's nice to get some explanation for something seemingly inexplicable! Now that Olli may have something in the wind I may have to wait to find out what that something is???
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