mud flaps!

[Alpine]

When the weather improves I'm going to get the rust in the bottom section of my front wings cut out and new sections welded in. I've been quoted £400 plus vat for both sides, which is a lot cheaper than 2 new front wings.

I was thinking of trying to make some small mud flaps which I would bolt through the wheel arch liner. This would be to stop the mud/water getting behind the bottom of the wings.

Has anyone done this or thought of doing so?

 

[Peter Empson]

I always meant to get some clear tape (the sort they sell in Halfords, can't remember the brand name now) to cover the leading edge of mine. I used the same stuff over my lights and it worked brilliantly at keeping the chips at bay. I'd have thought this would be the easiest and most discrete solution. IIRC quite a few 944 owners did the same when there was a group buy of the helicopter tape a few years back.

 

[sawood12]

Paul Smith posted this link many moons ago on this very subject. As far as I know no-one has taken the plunge. The way I see it is that it's taken 20yrs for your wings to get into their current state so as long as the repair is a good one you should be good for another 20yrs so why bother?

The area that seems to get mose of the abuse is the area just behind the rear wheels where the wheel arch curves round under the car. That area is crying out for some form of protection.

http://www.mamotorworks.com/pc-6-41-2007.html

 

[Diver944]

You swine! I've been trying to find that link all day and gave up Cheers Scott

Martyn Cockram the old RS used to have something like these on his S2, They sounded horrid from his description (mudflap spats) , but in the flesh they were quite small, discrete, looked okay and more importantly they worked.

 

[Guest]

Seem very inexpensive if they work.

But what about the "Cryogenically frozen" brake discs they sell ?
What's that all about ?

 

[Hilux]

Copied from the site...................

Cryogenically Frozen Rotors dramatically improve braking performance and extend rotor life. Deep cryogenic treatement is a one-time process that freezes rotors to minus 300 degrees F.! This super cold process permanently changes the atomic structure of the rotor. After cryogenic processing, rotors have greater resistance to thermal cyclic fatigue during repeated hard braking and a reduction in internal and external oxidation. Bottom line, your rotors resist cracking, warping and fading. You stop faster and your rotors last 2-4 times longer. Please specify year and model.

 

[morris944s2john]

I would not bother with mud flaps. My experience of mud flaps on cars is , as well as looking bad- they can trap moisture next to the wing where they are mounted and actually cause rusting. I've seen mud flaps work loose and damage tyres, cutting a groove in the tyre and writing it off, luckily the owner stopped before the mud flap caused a blow out!

I would just make sure the drain holes are clear and waxoyl/dinitrol the inside of the bottom of the wings every year.

 

[Alpine]

thanks for all your replies.

My main reason for thinking about mud flaps is that the chap I am going to use to do the repair said that even if he cuts the rust out and welds a new piece in he couldn't guarantee that the rust wont come back. I suppose the only way to guarantee this is to get new wings, but at £500 each and painting and fitting on top it seems way too expensive. Maybe I will just have to take the risk.

I agree that the plastic trim is a bad design. I removed my wheel arch liners a year or so ago to clean behind and it was full of years of mud and dirt. Its no surprise they have rusted.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Hilux
Cryogenically Frozen Rotors dramatically improve braking performance and extend rotor life. Deep cryogenic treatement is a one-time process that freezes rotors to minus 300 degrees F.! This super cold process permanently changes the atomic structure of the rotor. After cryogenic processing, rotors have greater resistance to thermal cyclic fatigue during repeated hard braking and a reduction in internal and external oxidation. Bottom line, your rotors resist cracking, warping and fading. You stop faster and your rotors last 2-4 times longer. Please specify year and model.

I did see this claim that Hilux has copied but I'm intrigued. My late father worked in the aircraft industry as a Metallurgist all his working life and I don't ever recall him talking about freezing metals to improve their characteristics.
Heat treatment yes (he had an industrial oven in his laboratory where it was not unknown for lunchtime pies to be warmed through .....) but freezing?
Is this something that has been newly discovered and does it work?

 

[Hilux]

Cough

The Westfield and `7` type owners swear by it. Cant see how it wouldnt work in a 944 wheelarch.

 

[Guest]

Isoflex is brilliant stuff.
Nothing like a bit of crossover from another trade!

I was in a DIY place a while back and saw a small (expensive) tin labelled "Heavy Duty Wood Filler". Intrigued, I prised the lid off to be met by the unmistakeable smell of styrene and the familiar sight of ........ car body filler.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: muddy

ORIGINAL: Hilux
Cryogenically Frozen Rotors dramatically improve braking performance and extend rotor life. Deep cryogenic treatement is a one-time process that freezes rotors to minus 300 degrees F.! This super cold process permanently changes the atomic structure of the rotor. After cryogenic processing, rotors have greater resistance to thermal cyclic fatigue during repeated hard braking and a reduction in internal and external oxidation. Bottom line, your rotors resist cracking, warping and fading. You stop faster and your rotors last 2-4 times longer. Please specify year and model.

I did see this claim that Hilux has copied but I'm intrigued. My late father worked in the aircraft industry as a Metallurgist all his working life and I don't ever recall him talking about freezing metals to improve their characteristics.
Heat treatment yes (he had an industrial oven in his laboratory where it was not unknown for lunchtime pies to be warmed through .....) but freezing?
Is this something that has been newly discovered and does it work?

Yep thats right. To change a materials properties you need to heat them up. The increase in kinetic energy of the molecules in the material will change the materials properties as the molecules break down and re-form as the material cools. If you cool a material down you reduce the kinetic energy of the molecules that make up the material which doesn nothing to change the materials properties and will just make the material brittle as it cools below its glass transition temperature and when the material warms back up the materials properties will remain unchanged.

 

[gemmerson]

in exactly the same boat, Alpine white S2 with both sides in need of some TLC. Local garage also quoted £500 ish per wing plus everything else which needs done. However one other option is to use the 944 repair patches and use the process called lead loading to finish the job off. There was an artical in the months practical classics to show how its done and the guys with real classic where repair panel are not available seem to swear by it as it is much better than the usual welding and possible return of rust .

g

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

ORIGINAL: muddy

ORIGINAL: Hilux
Cryogenically Frozen Rotors dramatically improve braking performance and extend rotor life. Deep cryogenic treatement is a one-time process that freezes rotors to minus 300 degrees F.! This super cold process permanently changes the atomic structure of the rotor. After cryogenic processing, rotors have greater resistance to thermal cyclic fatigue during repeated hard braking and a reduction in internal and external oxidation. Bottom line, your rotors resist cracking, warping and fading. You stop faster and your rotors last 2-4 times longer. Please specify year and model.

I did see this claim that Hilux has copied but I'm intrigued. My late father worked in the aircraft industry as a Metallurgist all his working life and I don't ever recall him talking about freezing metals to improve their characteristics.
Heat treatment yes (he had an industrial oven in his laboratory where it was not unknown for lunchtime pies to be warmed through .....) but freezing?
Is this something that has been newly discovered and does it work?

Yep thats right. To change a materials properties you need to heat them up. The increase in kinetic energy of the molecules in the material will change the materials properties as the molecules break down and re-form as the material cools. If you cool a material down you reduce the kinetic energy of the molecules that make up the material which doesn nothing to change the materials properties and will just make the material brittle as it cools below its glass transition temperature and when the material warms back up the materials properties will remain unchanged.

Scott,

Apologies for the OT post but cryogenics works. It does make the metal more brittle but also case hardens the metal. This is how our crankshafts/camshafts are Nitrided (placed in a bath of liquid nitrogen for a given period of time)
The same process is used on the tips of Snap On screwdrivers and may other items that require case hardening.
Not sure how it would work on brake discs though as they get heat cycled every time they are used

 

[Hilux]

the chap I am going to use to do the repair said that even if he cuts the rust out and welds a new piece in he couldn't guarantee that the rust wont come back

Dont want to knock anyone needlessly but possibly you should use someone else.

I have cut and shut a classic car big time and when I sold it on some 10 years later it was still rust free. The secret is to cut out the rusty bits back to good metal and ensure bare metal is not left for too long and is sanded before painting. Rust left in situ will resurface but if there`s no rust in the first place and it is protected and painted properly in a dry warm atmosphere you`ll have no issues..........................

 

[Alpine]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

the chap I am going to use to do the repair said that even if he cuts the rust out and welds a new piece in he couldn't guarantee that the rust wont come back

Dont want to knock anyone needlessly but possibly you should use someone else.

I have cut and shut a classic car big time and when I sold it on some 10 years later it was still rust free. The secret is to cut out the rusty bits back to good metal and ensure bare metal is not left for too long and is sanded before painting. Rust left in situ will resurface but if there`s no rust in the first place and it is protected and painted properly in a dry warm atmosphere you`ll have no issues..........................

Thanks Paul.

He may be just covering his own back. He was recommended by several PCGB people. I have found it almost impossible to find someone who is prepared to cut out rust and weld new metal in. Most repairers are only interested in spraying new panels and fitting them........

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: tommo951


Apologies for the OT post but cryogenics works. It does make the metal more brittle but also case hardens the metal. This is how our crankshafts/camshafts are Nitrided (placed in a bath of liquid nitrogen for a given period of time)
The same process is used on the tips of Snap On screwdrivers and may other items that require case hardening.
Not sure how it would work on brake discs though as they get heat cycled every time they are used

Tommo, i've certainly never heard or seen a process that includes cooling components to change their properties. Maybe there is a unique process that i've not come accross, but if so it is certainly not a conventional process and one that is widely used on everyday materials. However just for the record Nitriding is a case hardening process applied by either heat treatment (soaking parts in a furnace in an atmosphere of Nitrogen), or by plasma. It is essentially the absorbsion of Nitrogen into the molecular structure of the surface of the material that changes the mechanical properties.

And the process would be utterly useless on brake disks as it is a case hardening process where only the surface to a depth of microns is hardened and this surface would be worn away pretty quickly if applied to a brake disc. It is usually used for bearing surfaces - i.e. the big end bearing running surfaces on a crank shaft.

It is common to cryogenically clean components prior to heat treatment processes as any contaminants in contact on the surface will affect the surface molecular structure at elevated temperatures so the parts have to be spottlessly clean and de-greased, so maybe this is where the cryogenic part of the process comes into it.

And in asnwer to Scotty's question - it has absolutely sod all to do with rusting wheel arches but we like to digress.

Anyway, back on topic. Phil, your quote for £400 per wing - was that from an OPC and was it their catalogue price including VAT or was it a 'special' price or discounted in any way?

I too have looked into the possibility of welding new bottoms onto my wings and got a quote for £500 for both sides, but I don't think that will last very long at all. I fear the best thing to do is to bite the bullet and replace the wings. I think pattern parts (a complete wing) would last longer than welding on new bottoms. It would be a false economy.

 

[morris944s2john]

ORIGINAL: Alpine
-snip-

He may be just covering his own back. He was recommended by several PCGB people. I have found it almost impossible to find someone who is prepared to cut out rust and weld new metal in. Most repairers are only interested in spraying new panels and fitting them........

please see my lower wing repair thread, good luck with getting your wing done.

wing repair

 

[Alpine]

Scott

£500 for a new wing is what I was quoted, although it was a few months ago. OPC price was as competitive as anyone else. Once painting and fitting is taken into account, I'm looking at £1,600 for 2 front wings ! £400 was for the repair for both sides.

 

[steve 944t]

£400 to repair both sides sounds pretty good. I have today been quoted just over £400 per front wing (OPC). As you say, fitting and painting adds several hundred on top. Alternatively a pattern wing is available at £200, but only driver's side is available, passenger side not listed [:-]