New RHD 964 or 993N-GT anyone??

[Ninemeister]

Given the high value of perfect original N-GT's a customer recently commisioned us to build him a 964RS CS in RHD (his choice) for track day use and supplied us with a lightly damaged 1993 964C2 to use as a basis. After going through the pain of stripping the shell bare, seam welding a la RS and painting the shell inside and out we have now found a company who can dip strip the car and re-galvanise the complete shell after all the welding has been completed, so we are now considering building more to order, the cost for the conversion including RS or Cup suspension being in the region of £25-30k depending on specification.

Does any one else think it is a good idea to leave the valuable cars in the garages and build a cheaper identical replica for the track?

 

[stuj76]

ORIGINAL: Ninemeister

Given the high value of perfect original N-GT's a customer recently commisioned us to build him a 964RS CS in RHD (his choice) for track day use and supplied us with a lightly damaged 1993 964C2 to use as a basis. After going through the pain of stripping the shell bare, seam welding a la RS and painting the shell inside and out we have now found a company who can dip strip the car and re-galvanise the complete shell after all the welding has been completed, so we are now considering building more to order, the cost for the conversion including RS or Cup suspension being in the region of £25-30k depending on specification.

Does any one else think it is a good idea to leave the valuable cars in the garages and build a cheaper identical replica for the track?

Colin, when do you reckon this will be near completion?

 

[oliver]

I think it depends upon the total cost.

If it is possible to create a road legal, track prepared, RS 'lookalike' (including donor car) for £20k(ish) then there could be quite a healthy market - look at all the 2.7RS 'recreations'.

The issue would be getting the right balance between quality, cost and, of course, the ultimate performance of the finished product.

 

[Yoda]

If the conversion costs 25-30k, I would rather spend a few more pounds and buy the real thing and use it. In my opinion, there needs to be a much larger margin to make a track replica worthwhile eg I would buy a 2.7 RS replica for 20k as originals cost 80k + but not a 964 RS CS replica for 35k (10k donor car + 25k conversion) when the real thing costs about the same.

 

[Tony]

That's a very keen price Colin. Presumably excluding the donor car? I'm not sure it's worth it yet given the number of pucka RS's around. But, if you've already got a 964 you were going to spend some money on, maybe it's the way to go.

Tony

 

[TISPKJ]

Slightly off topic but what happend to that cheap 964 RS that had been painted for £20k ?

Seem to recal that hung around for a while and was the real thing.

So why would you pay the same money for a replica ?

 

[oldtimer]

Hi Colin, I'm with Yoda on this one , there is not a strong financial case for building a 964RS replica as an alternative to using the real thing on track.
Does anyone know how well Paul Stevens is doing with his retro models based on both 3.2 Carrera and 964 Carrera donor cars ? Launched at the Brands PCGB festival in Aug 2004 ie before Porsche AG chucked out 3rd party vendors from the event!!!.

 

[Ninemeister]

The only way to get a track prepared 964 for £20k is to buy a battered old race car and in contrast proper 2.7RS replicas these days are fetching £40k+. What seeded the idea for the conversion was the RHD "CS" conversion we are half way through and another customer's near perfect £65k (yes, sixty five grand!), 13,000km 964RS CS which is in having Motec fitted.

With all due respect what we are proposing (in typical 9m style) is not simply along the lines of a 2.7 lookalike, these would be new "RS's" built from the ground up to the customer's specification . For instance, the shell could be built to exact RS specifications - seam welded shell with a welded in CS rollcage, dipped to remove all traces of old paint & underseal, electrolitically treated to remove all traces of corrosion, re-galvanised, etched and then painted inside/outside/underside to factory standards. The engines could be chosen from a range from 300 to 450bhp (n/a of course), gearboxes with a choice of ratios, RS or Cup suspension, RS brakes, etc. The intention is that customers could specify the car to their requirement and budget and we would do the rest, the only ultimate difference from original being the chassis number and possible position of the steering wheel.

We already have a RHD 993GT2CS in the pipeline and have a 964 Speedster being built to a similar specification with a 4.0 litre engine, so there is definitely some serious interest in the concept. Anyway, food for thought.

 

[sambaman]

mmm..sounds good but the final price on one of these car could be ridiculous if spec'd mega high ? i agree with previous posts simply buy a genuine RS and enjoy.... but if it comes off then good luck !!!!

 

[SimonExtreme]

Sorry, Colin, but I think you are 10 years too soon. There needs to be a price difference of at least £20,000 and for insurance rates for classics on the track to go up. But I love the idea!

 

[t11ner]

This might frustrate the pureists but why would you buy a teenage RS when you could buy a brand new one built to your own spec for the same money?

If it about enjoying the car, I can't see the downside!

If these were coming off a production line at Porsche you would all be forming a queue [8|] so unless there is a questionmark over quality I can't see the problem!

 

[Hacki]

Hello ninemeister,

great idea! Building up cars with the specs you mentioned on a high quality level will give the owner the ultimate thing, the choice of suspensions, engines etc. will make the car match its owners demands for 100%. So, if anybody wants "his" very special car, that´s the way to go.
On the other hand, from the money point of view, an original car will always cost more, prices will rise year by year and maybe in 10 - 15 years an original RS will be a precious thing, especially with a fully documented history. Noone knows about the value of a replica in 10 - 15 years, but normally you have to keep your replica or you will loose a lot of money.

I always thought about modifying my 964 Cup car (former factory car), but I´ve done only a few things and kept all the original parts so that it´ll always be an original thing. But I use it on track, too with all the normal damages that can happen.As long as any repairs are done properly and are documented I don´t think that the car will loose value. So, sometimes I would like to have some conversions done (like a personalized replica), but then again I want to keep it original.

Again, the best way to go is to have both, your personal toy with all the specs you like and the original car with perfect factory specs and history.

BTW, what´s the price level for original 964 Cup cars in England? Has anybody got a rough idea, any cars on the market or recently sold?

Regars,

Hartwig

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: t11ner

This might frustrate the pureists but why would you buy a teenage RS when you could buy a brand new one built to your own spec for the same money?

If it about enjoying the car, I can't see the downside!

If these were coming off a production line at Porsche you would all be forming a queue [8|] so unless there is a questionmark over quality I can't see the problem!

No problem in itself but given time, what would it be worth compared with an original car? Part of owning and driving these cars is the history and originallity and if I were to spend £40k or whatever it would be building a trackday special, it wouldn't be a reproduction 964RS. I personally don't see the problem, yet, of driving the originals and mine drives as well as a brand new car would anyway! It should do seeing the PO put on all new suspension, brakes, lsd and many other bits. Once I have finished a few minor bits and a rather annoying body repair, it really will be as good as new!

 

[t11ner]

I guess it comes down to whether there is a difference between a replica (which appears to be the same but perhaps isn't) and a newly built version of the original RS, done to the same or greater standards.

I am probably an idealist on this and I recognise that an original mint condition RS will always be the "proper thing" but if there aren't that many truely mint examples left, I can't imagine buying anything less if a new one is available to your own spec!

Each to their own I guess []

 

[SimonExtreme]

Yes, it is each to their own but.........................

to say there aren't many mint original examples left might have some truth, but why not spend the money getting them right rather than replicas. In addition, an RS doesn't heve to be mint to drive perfectly. Very few of the cup cars were after the first race or two, not that they were raced as bumper cars......[]

 

[ian c]

ORIGINAL: t11ner

I guess it comes down to whether there is a difference between a replica (which appears to be the same but perhaps isn't) and a newly built version of the original RS, done to the same or greater standards.

I am probably an idealist on this and I recognise that an original mint condition RS will always be the "proper thing" but if there aren't that many truely mint examples left, I can't imagine buying anything less if a new one is available to your own spec!

Each to their own I guess []

my brietling is 3 years old , needs a sevice and scratches sorting , but i wear it everyday for work so cant be without it while its sorted .

yet i can go to thailand this christmas and have a decent quality replica made while i wait (in a nearby bar) for about 1/100th of my original .........

each to there own i guess !!![]

 

[chfs911]

Just buy a cheap GT3 for thrashing and keep the RS for Concours.

My choice! ;O)

 

[Krispe]

Ninemeister

At the moment you would probably find it hard to sell an RS replica for £30k+ when the original is still available at this price. So don't build an RS replica. Build a car to your own spec, (albiet similar to the original RS). Give it its own name, the 9M ..?..., and badge it as a 9M car on the bonnet, boot, steering wheel, dials etc, (like RUF, Brabus, Eagle etc do). Get it tested by the motoring press, (Porsche magazines, Evo etc). You are doing a complete rebuild/redesign so offer a 12 month warranty. Get the car established with its own identity, not a 'replica' and you will find your market place and the car will keep good resale values.

I'm a few years away from having £30k+ to spend, but when I do, if you did the above I would spend it on a 'new' 9M.... rather than an 'old' RS.