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New vehicle not what I expected!!!!

rob911

New member
I know its not Porsche related but I'm not sure of my options and was wondering if anyone here would have any advice.
I had planned entering a couple of bike enduro's this year and yesterday I bought myself a 2004 Honda CR250 (motocross) from a dealer.
I was quite surprised when after trailering the bike halfway across the country to my place, I started to give the bike a good check over only to find out along with a few problems, the chassis number states it's a 2003 model.
I have the receipt in front of me stating its a 2004 bike - whats my options?

Because of the found faults, I'm planning to contact the selling dealer with the hope either 1. He fixes the problems (approx £350 worth of parts), 2. He refunds some of the payment to allow me to replace the faults found, or 3. He supplies me with a 2004 as new bike as advertised.
Since his shop is a round trip away of 450 miles, he would need to pick up the bike from myself rather than me take a day trip down there.
I've no idea what to expect after contacting the dealer but it should be interesting!!!!!
I wanted the newest model for my money and I could have bought a 2003 bike for approx £350 less!!!!!
Cheers
Rob




 
Rob you do not say where you live ,as you posted in the Scottish section I take it you stay here and the fact you have a 450 ml round trip you bought the bike in England,you would need to contact the local TSO to seek there advice if the dealer does not play ball Sale of Goods Act not fit for purpose,no legal eagle so cannot help you more ,hope you get it sorted
 
If it is from a dealer you should have no problem getting a refund, or to save the hassle it might be worth asking for a partial refund. It is always worth checking the engine/chassis number is correct as often they don't differ much year to year, I remember there were always lots of 96-on YZ125 with later (lighter blue) plastics being passed off as newer models. The dealer should know what they are doing and will have checked the VIN but give him the benefit of the doubt. If no luck might be worth a post on www.mxtrax.co.uk forum. On the opposite side of the coin I once px'd an 84 CR125 with '85 graphics and he gave me '85 money as he assumed that's what it was! (I never said what year it was and wasn't trying to pass it off).
Best of luck,
Alan.
 
The chassis number will tell you the model year of manufacture, but often stock can sit in showrooms and not be bought and registered till a year or two later. This is commonplace and not illegal, you just need to know EXACTLY what you have bought. In the early 90's the market was slow and many Porsches registered as 91's or 92's can often be 90 models.

If it is advertised as a 2004 bike, and registered in 2004, even if it is a 2003 model, I regret you probably haven't got much comeback.

What are the other faults you talk about?
 
John - because the bike is a motocross - it has never been registered or road legal.
The only way of telling its age is through the chassis number.

After giving the bike a good look over, faults found are as follows:-
The rear wheel bearings have quite a bit of play in them and need replaced.
Chain is at max adjustment so needing replaced along with sprockets.
Rear disc has a wear ridge.
Exhaust (FMF) has a dent in the front pipe and dent in the rear silencer - remember the bike is a 2-stroke and the exhaust condition is very important to engine performance.
Despite the bike having a 'service' prior to collection, the plug has not been changed and the air filter is in a shocking state.
Because of the above faults, I'm planning to contact the selling dealer with the hope either 1. He fixes the above, 2. He refunds some of the payment to allow me to replace the faults found, or 3. He supplies me with a 2004 as new bike as advertised.
 
ORIGINAL: rob911

John - because the bike is a motocross - it has never been registered or road legal.
The only way of telling its age is through the chassis number.

Hmm, point taken, if it has never been registered, my advice does not apply.

As for the other stuff, it suggests the bike has had a harder life than it was described as, a simple case of goods not as described. As this was an eBay purchase, I suspect you will have a difficult job getting much retribution. Best of luck though.

If it was a dealer, a spot of "name and shame" might help.

JH
 
John - despite the bike being advertised on ebay, it was purchased 'off-ebay' once the auction had finished.
 
ORIGINAL: rob911

John - despite the bike being advertised on ebay, it was purchased 'off-ebay' once the auction had finished.

Either way I guess it counts as a private transaction, so not much legal come back I suspect.
 
The vehicle sales invoice at least shows he put it through the books and on the invoice he's quoting the chassis number and the age of the bike which conflicts with the chassis age. I'm sure there's something in the sale of goods act which mentions goods must be as described. fit for purpose and in a safe condition.
I'm planning to give him a call tomorrow to see when he re-opens to discuss this.
 
I'd check it out with the Trading Standards department of your local council, or better yet his local council. If he is a trader, these are the last guys he will want to hear from. This advice has worked for others recently, and best of all it's free.
 
After giving the bike a good look over, faults found are as follows:-
The rear wheel bearings have quite a bit of play in them and need replaced.
Chain is at max adjustment so needing replaced along with sprockets.
Rear disc has a wear ridge.
Exhaust (FMF) has a dent in the front pipe and dent in the rear silencer - remember the bike is a 2-stroke and the exhaust condition is very important to engine performance.
Just MY opinion - apart from the year issue which may have been a genuine mix up I don't think you have much recall here - the points you mention, if that's all there are on a 3-4 year old MX bike you've done well! Caveat emptor, the buyer should check these things prior to purchase. Good luck though, best regards,
Alan.
 
You are covered by the Sale of Goods act and I have used this to reject a GT3 and a Boxster in the past few years.

Is the 2004 year referred to by the dealer the model year or the build date? Easy mistake to make!

I would ask for the bike to be fixed, if the faults were not shown at the time of sale - you have better comeback from an English system I am pretty sure. It is more difficult with a second hand product as the condition from new can be very different.

At the end of the day if it's only £350 maybe the dealer can arrange for the issues to be fixed in Scotland and you can both come out of it happy!
 
Looking at the invoice just now and it states the bike is a 2004 model.
Looking at trading standards site and it quotes:-

Buying Goods - your rights

When you buy goods from a trader, such as a shop, market stall, garage, etc, you enter into a contract, which is controlled by many laws including, the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended by the Sale & Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002). The law gives you certain implied, or automatic, statutory rights, under this contract.

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) says that goods should be as follows:

  • Of satisfactory quality.

This means the goods must meet the standards that any reasonable person would expect, taking into account the description, the price and all other relevant information. In some circumstances, the retailer may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer about the goods.

Satisfactory quality includes the appearance and finish of the goods, their safety and durability and whether they are free from defects (including minor faults)

  • Fit for the purpose

that goods of this type are generally sold. They must also be fit for any specific or particular purpose made known to the seller at the time of the agreement.

As described
- goods should correspond with any description applied to them.
When are you not entitled to anything?

  • If you were told of any faults before you bought the goods.
  • If the fault was obvious and it would have been reasonable to have noticed it on examination before buying.
  • If you caused any damage yourself.
  • If you made a mistake, e.g. you don't like the colour, it is the wrong size etc.
  • If you have changed your mind about the goods, or seen them cheaper elsewhere.

The situation may be different and you may have additional rights where contracts involve:

  • credit (see 'your rights when buying on credit');
  • distance selling i.e. not involving face to face contact, for example internet sales, catalogue, telephone sales etc. (see 'shopping at home'); or
  • an unsolicited phone call or visit to your home.

What are you entitled to ask for?

If the goods are faulty at the time of sale, you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:

1) A full refund.
This remedy is available when the goods have not been 'accepted'. Under the Sale of Goods Act, acceptance can take place in three ways:

  • By telling the retailer that you have accepted them.
  • By acting in a way with the goods which is inconsistent with the seller's ownership. E.g. if you have altered the goods in any way or customised them then you would be deemed to have accepted them.
  • By keeping them for longer than a reasonable time without telling the seller that you have rejected them. There is no time specified in the Act and it may vary according to the type of goods. Ultimately, it may be for the judge to decide whether an unreasonable time has passed and whether goods have been accepted. For this reason you must contact the supplier, preferably in writing, as soon as the fault appears. To delay may mean you lose a right to a refund

If acceptance has taken place, then only the following remedies are available:

2) Compensation (damages)
The amount of compensation may be based on the cost of repair, or if that is not possible, compensation may be based on the purchase price with an allowance for usage.
3) Repair or replacement
The trader can refuse to agree to either of these remedies if it is disproportionate in comparison to the other remedies. For example, if you ask a trader to replace a washing machine then he would be entitled to turn down your request and offer a repair instead.
However, the repair or replacement must be carried out within a reasonable time and without causing significant inconvenience to the consumer. If this does not happen or the repair or replacement is not possible, then the consumer can rescind the contract (claim a refund) or request a reduction in purchase price.
Please note: The remedies of repair/replacement and the subsequent rescission or reduction in purchase price are not applicable to Hire Purchase contracts and other laws apply. Please contact your local Trading Standards Service for further advice
4) Rescission or reduction in price

These financial remedies can only be achieved by a failure of the repair / replacement option once acceptance has taken place. If the trader agrees to rescission, the amount paid may be reduced to take account of usage.
Once you have chosen a remedy and the trader has agreed, you must give the trader a reasonable time to effect the chosen remedy before switching to another one. Ultimately, if a remedy cannot be agreed upon, then the courts have the power to choose any of the remedies.
Proving the fault
  • If you have not accepted the goods and are rejecting and claiming a full refund or damages, it is YOU, the consumer, who needs to prove that there has been a breach of contract in that the goods are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described at the time of purchase.
  • If you are claiming the remedies of repair or replacement within the first six months after purchase, it is for THE TRADER to prove that the goods conformed to the contract at the time of sale.
  • If you are claiming repair or replacement more than six months after purchase, the burden of proof is back to YOU, the consumer.
  • If it becomes necessary to obtain an expert opinion to support your claim, there are procedures to follow before you employ anyone in this capacity. County Court rules say that where an expert is necessary, it should be a single, jointly approved expert, and the expert's duty is to the court. You need to agree your choice of expert with the other party, and allow them to put their comments to the expert. Failure to follow this procedure may mean that a judge may not allow your expert to be heard should the matter eventually reach County Court. For further clarification, please seek advice from your local Trading Standards Service.
Who can you claim against for faulty goods?
Your claim could be against:
  • the retailer under the Sale of Goods Act;
  • the manufacturer (under the terms of a guarantee if you have one);
  • a credit company if financed by credit (see 'Your Rights when Buying on credit' leaflet); or
  • the credit card company (see 'Your Rights when Buying on credit' leaflet).
Guarantees
If the manufacturer of the goods provides a free guarantee with the goods, this creates a contractual obligation by the guarantor. If the manufacturer fails to honour the guarantee, you could sue the manufacturer for the promises he makes. A guarantee is extra to your rights under the Sale of Goods Act. In some circumstances, you may have a claim under the guarantee, but find that a claim under the Sale of Goods Act would be difficult to prove, or vice versa. You may also in some circumstances have a claim against both, and therefore have a choice of who to claim against. If you are unsure seek advice from your local Trading Standards Service.
A trader or manufacturer is under no obligation to provide a guarantee, and if they do, they can specify any time span, for example six months, twelve months or three years. They can also specify what is to be covered by the guarantee, and exclude certain parts, or wear and tear. They cannot, however, take away any rights you would have under the Sale of Goods Act
Returns policies
Some retailers make promises out of goodwill that they will issue refunds for unused goods within a time period, for whatever reason. This creates additional useful rights for consumers.
Offences
If the seller is in business (rather than a private seller), he may have committed a criminal offence if he:
  • sells goods which are unsafe;
  • has given a false description to the goods i.e. a car sold with incorrect mileage (clocked car);
  • gives a false description to the services he is providing e.g. falsely claiming to be a member of a trade association;
  • advertises a misleading price;
  • displays a sign which states 'No Refunds'.
If you feel that any of the above could apply, you should report the matter to your local Trading Standards Service before you return to the trader.
If you have been injured as a result of any goods, you should seek immediate advice from a solicitor.
Some problem areas when buying goods
Private sales
When you buy goods from a private individual, you don't have the same rights as when buying from a trader. The legal principle of caveat emptor, or 'buyer beware', operates. You have no rights to expect that goods be of satisfactory quality or fit for their purpose, but there is a requirement that they should be 'as described'. You should check goods thoroughly before you buy them.
Second-hand goods
The Sale of Goods Act applies to second-hand goods. When considering whether goods are of satisfactory quality one must take into account the lower expectations of second hand goods. For example, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a ten-year-old, high mileage car to be completely free from fault, or to perform in the same way as a brand new vehicle, or to last as long. Second hand goods will have part-worn parts which will not be as durable as a new model.
Sale goods
Again, you have full rights under the Sale of Goods Act. However, if the goods were reduced in price because of a fault that was either brought to your attention at the time, or if you examined the goods and the defect would have been obvious to you, you would not be able to have your money back later for that particular fault.
Auctions
When anyone buys at auction they are seen to be dealing as a trader. In a trade to trade contract it is possible for the parties to limit their liabilities to each other, and for this reason it has been possible for the auction house to put up notices which exclude the purchase from rights given by the Sale of Goods Act. This is subject to a reasonableness test and is covered by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
However
  • New goods purchased at auction by a consumer will be covered by the Sale of Goods Act with the corresponding remedies.
  • Second hand goods will also be covered when sold at auction but only where the consumer cannot attend in person
Some car auctions give the purchaser a limited time to try out the vehicle and reject if not suitable. This may only be a matter of a few hours, so it is worth looking closely at the terms of business.
This leaflet is not an authoritative interpretation of the law and is intended only for guidance. For further information, please contact your local Trading Standards Service.
Last reviewed/updated: November 2004
Copyright 2006 itsa Ltd on behalf of the Trading Standards Institute
This leaflet is relevant for the following nation(s) only:
  • England
  • Wales
  • Northern Ireland



Plenty of good stuff there.
 
I would think with a second hand bike or vehicle, expectations should be lower and I've read that the SOGA takes this into account.

Maybe suggest just fixing bits and a couple of hundred quid as comp?
 

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