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Hi guys & girls,

Just a fleeting visit at the moment, I currently run an MG ZS 180 which is a 2.5V6 motor running just short of 200BHP and handles like a dream, anyway after doing a few trackdays and running the motor for a couple of years its time to change and I am v.tempted by a Club Sport.

Questions.

1) How much to pay for something decent I can use for a couple of years and probably put 30-40 thou miles on the clock, and what can I expect in terms of depreciation ?

2) What are running costs like i.e. fuel consumption, tyres, servicing, insurance group etc

3) Recommendations on supplying dealers as I'll probably want to PX my '02 reg MG (I'm in Shropshire so local would be nice [;)] )

Cheers

Mike [8D]
 
Hi Mike,

Can't say I've ever been a fan of anything MG / Rover, but a lot of people appear to buy them, so there must be something in it.

I've recently bought my Sport, but I've been looking for about 6 months, and this is how I figure it:

There were a very small number of 968's imported to the UK compared with other cars, so when people sell them, they tend to guess at a price and that leads to a wide range of prices for similar spec cars. Condition & provable history are what's important. You can pay anywhere between 10K and 16K at the moment.

Depreciation is very low compared to new cars. Price wise, 968's will always fall somewhere between 944s and Boxsters. As long as the mileage isn't sky-high, decreased condition is the biggest reason for depreciation.

I got 31mpg recently on a trip from Kent to Stoke and back. I usually get 27ish.
I've been quoted about 160 ish each for Pirelli P zeros to replace my front tyres. P zeros aren't the cheapest tyre though.
My Sport is insurance group 20.
Most specialists offer fixed price servicing. I think my 12K service was about £260.

Check out Autobhan in Conventry and 911virgin.com.

Bear in mind that the Club Sport may appear quite basic after your MG in terms of trim level and creature comforts. A 968 Coupe will still be very competent around the track, but you'll also get electric seats / 6 or 10 speakers / air con / etc.

Chris
 
Chris, those Pzeros sound dear, I paid £103 each for my last set they're 205/45/17 what size does the 968 take ?

As for the MG its the bang for the buck, bought it new for 13K and spent about £300 to get it up the 20bhp to 196bhp and they handle really well on circuit, so much so I have scared a few scoobies round Castle Coomb [:D]

Downside is it only averages about 22 MPG and it has the Rover image problem

Mike
 
On the front they're 225 45 17 P Zero Direczionale, and on the back 255 40 17 P Zero Asymetrico.

The quote was off the top of my head so it might be wrong. It was from my local branch of STS who are a Pirelli Performance Centre. They may not be the cheapest, but I can be reasonably confident that they're not gonna take the tyre off the rim with a crow bar or use clip on weights. [:mad:]

Chris
 
I think the size is the main difference affecting cost, I have the asymmetrics all round fitted by the local tyre place but knowing the owner he always does them very carefully for fear of a slap [:mad:]

Getting very tempting now, the more I find out from trauling the web the more appealing the 968 becomes. Just gotta find a blue club sport with about 20K on the clock with the big brake and suspension upgrade, roll cage & club sport graphics for £10K [:D] LOL I know dream on ......

Mike
 
Mike,

Welcome on board, always nice to see another 968 convert. The only snag with your plan is the mileage you plan to do, and the fact that you are replacing a new car with a 10 year old one. Let me explain ...

If you buy a Club Sport, it is going to have on average about 80k miles on it, and it will be a 10 year old car. Most folk nowadays buying a car like this, will add maybe 5,000 miles per annum, and use the car at weekends and for occasional track days etc. On this basis, maintenance won't be too dear, and the car will hold its value as it is not racking up big miles.

However ... take the same car, use it the way you would a new car, rack up big miles, as well as track time, and two things will almost ceratinly happen. It will never be as reliable as a new car, and the maintenance bills will get bigger, potentially much bigger. It may be a Porsche, but it is also a 10 year old thoroughbred, and that is just the way it is. Add to this the fact that in a couple of years you will have a car with a big 6 figure mileage on the clock, and I guarantee it will depreciate.

Please don't think I'm trying to put you off, I'm not. The 968 is a great car, but IMHO it does not make a good replacement for a high mileage daily driver. This does not just apply to the 968, but to any older expensive performance car.

Any other opinions?

John H
 
Mike, if I was in your position I would buy the 968 and a 'beater' (as they say stateside) as a daily driver. Late 80s / early 90s E-class Mercs always strike me as good cars for throwaway money.

A 968 used for limited mileage as a second car qualifies for classic insurance, and as John points out your maintenance and depreciation costs will be much lower. My 968 is my only car (I walk to work), but if I needed to commute I would go out and buy a banger ASAP so as not to pile too many miles on the 968 (it's done enough already [:)]).

As for dealer recommendations, from experience I can recommend Hartech in Bolton http://www.hartech.u-net.com. Very knowledgeable about front engine Porsches, although they don't have any for sale at the moment. Autobahn http://www.autobahn.co.uk is probably your closest, also in the Midlands is Shirleys of Meriden http://www.shirleys-garage.co.uk

Happy hunting!
 
Hmm I do have rather large rose tinted specs [:D]

Perhaps a little more info would help, I currently recieve a cash for car payment from work for running my own vehicle which amounts to £250 per month, the MG was the first and probably only new car I will buy. Reason, even tho' its not actually costing me anything to buy it, finance calculated to match my cash payment. It has lost almost 55% in just under 2 years and that just makes me sick.

Whatever I decide I will buy second hand or run this one into the floor, but I'm bored with it now and fancy a change, hence my look at Porsche as they have the reputation for being a good second hand buy and I've always been impressed with the CS's I've seen on track.

So whilst I appreciate high miles would drop the value, in reality it costs me nothing so I suppose the real question is would it kill the 968 ? If say I bought one with 60 thou on it and ran it for two years I reckon I'd be upto 100K, I see plenty advertised at this sort of mileage and have read very few horror stories so what are the pitfalls/maintenance issues with a car at this mileage that I could be letting myself in for. Am I really that mad ...please feel free to say yes [8D]

I don't want a rep mobile[:(][:(]
 
Mike

On the mileage issue, my car has done almost 100k, I have had a few cars before which have done the same or more than this and not felt anywhere near as fresh. The 968 feels really strong and properly maintained with some mechanical 'sensitivity' should go on to 200k. On the 944 forum there a quite a few owners glowing about their high mileage cars, so the outlook is good for us.

I did exchange an e-mail with Henry at 911virgin.com about finding a 968 and was also worried about high milers, his point was 'miles count for relatively little, if it has been looked after'. Having owned such a vehicle for 9 months now, I know he was so right.

Best of luck.


paul
 
Mike

If you can handle the cost side of things, then by all means go for it. With the proper maintenance, these things will cover well over 250000 miles without too much trouble. Maintenance costs vary, but to give an idea I have had my car 18 months/10000 miles and have spent £1500 on servicing and repairs. Obviously at 20k per year this may be higher but I guess compared to new car depreciation it's nothing!

As for things to look for:

Make sure the condition of the cam chain / tensioner assembly (and the camshafts themselves) are checked on any car you're thinking of buying (the cambelt drives the exhaust camshaft, which in turn drives the inlet camshaft by means of a chain). Any nasty surprises in this area (stretched chains can snap or break teeth off the camshaft sprockets) = big £££.

If the belts haven't been done in the last two years, budget £300 for replacement.

There's probably more but I'll leave other more learned souls here to chime in.

BTW have you driven one yet - that should help make up your mind [:)]
 
Mike, I say go for it [:D][:D][:D] the front engined Porsche are hewn from solid rock.

I bought a 944 S2 for exactly the same reasons as you about 5 years ago and was originally putting 18k miles a year on it (now less as it's my wifes [:)] ). The S2 is very similar to the 968 and it has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. I keep track of all my costs at http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showCar.asp?carId=6921 and it has cost less than £1k a year to service and repair and I have clocked 50,000 miles in it as well as a fair number of trackdays.

You must keep on top of things like the all important belts as mentioned, as well as the belt rollers that they run on. Other owners will be able to tell you if the camchain in the head is as fragile as the 944 S2 version which was never in any Porsche maintenance schedule and 944 owners started getting failures around the 10 year mark. Apart from making sure any potential purchase has had all it's fluids replaced regularly including brake, coolant and gearbox it's just a case of waiting for things to wear out and replace them. A Clubsport should have less of those annoying electrical things to go wrong. [:D]

It's my personal opinion but once a car like this is over 10 years old it is the condition and maintenance history that determines depreciaition, not the mileage. At this age, parts start to wear out because of age, not solely because of use. Regular use will keep a car in tip-top running order and I am guessing it will cost virtually the same to service a car once a year having only done a few thousand miles as it does for a once a year car that does 12 thousand.

At the time I bought mine it was an 8 yr old car and I paid virtually top whack from a dealer at £12k. 968's are now reaching the same age as my trusty S2 and seem to sell for a few thousand more than I paid back in 1998. If really looked after I think the 968 should be at the bottom of its depreciation curve soon and prices should level out. The 968 is infinitely more rare than the 944 so I think it could hold its value much better as the good ones become even scarcer.

Go for it - the 944 S2 is a multi purpose car that can handle anything. The 968 is a newer and improved version and will be so much tastier than the Rover [8D]
 
Cheers guys, keep the feedback coming I'm learning slowly ;)

Spotted a red sport on autotrader at £10k IIRC but not being at a specialist dealer I'm reticent to go there just in case. Also I really do prefer the more hardcore stripped out CS... Honest !

Trouble is prices are so variable its gonna be hard, had a look at some on a site tonight, can't remember the name now think it began with an 'S' and they were based up north but they had a CS with all the nice bits at £18K. too much !

Might take a run out to AutoBahn at the weekend, get a closer look at what I might be getting myself into [;)]

Mike
 
Just seen this CS £15995 on AutoBahn site , low mileage ??
photo70.jpg


Also a black CS at £13K but they don't state mileages.

Mike
 
It will be hard work but please make sure you test a few around the country before even coming close to making up your mind. Even the really crap cars will look damned good, and many owners think they can sell at a high price simply because another car of the same year was for sale at top whack.

It's only when you've driven a few will you realise which ones really are crap (and there WILL be some because people can just about afford to buy a cheapish Porsche but then they suddenly get hit with large repair bill which they delay and then sell the car). I would advise to look at some cheap ones and then try some further up the scale, you should notice the difference and realise why the more expensive ones are worth it in the end.
 
Mike, if they've still got both of them then a trip up there seems like a no brainer. I know if I was in your shoes and I went to see two, chances are I'd definitely come back with one of them!

ps if you do go be sure to drool over the black 928 GTS if they still have it [:)]
 
Ahhh, a trifling inconvenience Steve, it will be mine!

(in about 20 years time when it's £3995 on a forecourt somewhere [:)])
 
Steve,

I read about the pinion problem somewhere earlier, something to do with the shimming of the pinion gear, will defo listen out for that one cheers.

Alex,

I'll be making sure all my ZS documents go with me so you never know. Although I doubt it, I'm too cautious when it comes to spending money on cars, what I'll probably do is try to get a test drive and an idea of what my motors worth. I think its probably worth 9 to 10K in A1 condition so that would leave me with a few K to find on top of the remaining finance on the ZS which is now down to about 4K remaining. Whatever happens I need to be able to do it within the £250/mth so the Black CS at 13K looks the best bet, especially as its just had a big service including all the belts.

Mike
 
Great thread guys, lots of solid info and useful opinions. This kinda response to a newbie really justifies the forum's existence ... keep it comin!


Mike, you are clearly going into this with your eyes wide open, and a tight hold on your wallet, so you can disregard some of my earlier warnings. The advice holds good, but as long as you know what you are getting into, it's not an issue.

Cam chain is essential, as are cam belts. So called "full service history" only means it has had expensive oil changes, and IMHO is worth much less than the trade would like you to think. Gearbox problem is also well known, but with a lower incidence than the cam chain issue, although expensive if you are unlucky. These cars eat brake disks and pads, and they need fresh tyres regularly. An alignment check is worth it too. Allow too for possibly re-furbing the wheels, and some bodywork to get rid of stone chips on the nose. The rubber beading along the sill panels comes loose, not major, but unsightly, and needs a skilled hand to fix it properly. Check the windscreen for any sign of de-lamination, and the same for the rear glass hatch, they have been known to come llose from the frame. Check too for dampness in footwells, and in the boot. There are lots of drain tubes on a 968 and they all need to work.

I spent over a year looking for a good car, and saw some dodgy ones, but in retrospect, one of the best ones was the very first one I saw and knocked back! They are sufficiently rare to make valuing them very difficult. There are no rules ... go by condition, service history, and the honesty of the vendor,

"May the force be with you" (O W Kenobi)


JH
 
mike

i've done similar thing as you're looking to - i handed back the company car (golf gti - comfortable, all mod cons, free tyres & servicing & insurance [:)]) and bought a 968 as my everyday car - the only difference being i only drive 10 miles a day
Like you i wanted the clubsport - and it had to have the proper bucket seats as opposed to the comfort spec ones - I appear to suffer from some sort of lightweight porsche fetish [8D]. This is (warts 'n all) what its like to make the change:

Its been 6 months now since i swapped. i bought a 1 owner since new car with 70k miles on it and full history (including bills for work done, not just the oil changes). i also budgeted to change ALL belts & fluids immediately for peace of mind - and also had to spend a bit on a tiny oil leak a the same time. Makes sense to put by another £1-2000 to 'fettle' the car you buy - especially if you are a bit anal about having the car sorted completely.

Day to day its uncomfortable, and i look like a drunk driving around as i'm continuously swerving around potholes - suddenly you realise how bad our roads are. having no air con was a bitch in the summer for about a week. no central locking is a pain when its raining. opening the boot from the passenger side only is a double pain when allied to no central locking - especially when its raining again! the seats require an advanced level of gymnastics daily, but are comfortable as long as you don't have anything in your trouser pockets for the majority of the time. when you're stuck in traffic and its hot however you end up with your trousers tightening around your nethers and you can't move around as the seat is holding you in so tightly...then it can get painful [:mad:]. i'm also paranoid about parking it anywhere, a bit self concious of having a bright red phallus replacement - especially sat in traffic on the way home as i'm doing some sort of disco shuffle trying the re-arrange myself with transit drivers looking down at you, i get annoyed about parking dents in the doors, it uses more fuel than the golf, and i'm constantly paranoid about every noise the car makes expecting the worst and a massive bill. Having no rear wiper and no heated rear view mirrors means that backing out of my driveway every morning can be haphazard. being unable to adjust the wing mirrors from inside the car is a pain when you've washed it and go for a drive forgetting to reset them. winding down the window manually is fine, but not being able to wind down the passenger one electrically can be a pain in the ar5e. only having two seats means its totally impractical when you have visitors - especially if the wife has a two seater as well.

Where the company golf was indestructable - it never needed oil or tyres checking, could be left in any side street in london, could be driven at ten tenths everywhere in front wheel drive understeer mode, fitted through every gap, was happy bouncing over kerbs and never needed a cover in the boot before going to the tip, the 968 needs 100% concentration - especially in the wet on the motorway. it needs all oil and tyres checked every week and is probably driven slower everywhere. it really needs a total shift of mindset.

would i swap back therefore? NO. i love my 968. all of the stuff above is the character missing in modern euroboxes. having to think about driving i reckon makes me a safer driver as i'm alert all the time. theres pleasure in how well the car is engineered vs a modern car - just look at the quality of a new ford's interior. the sensation of flooring it past traffic on an A road and having more than enough power to do it safely. its practical enought to fit a christmas tree in the back. i take stuff to the tip in it (with a heavyweight tarpaulin covering the carpet!). i'm still learning the limits of the car 6 months into ownership (as opposed to 6 days in the golf). its rare - you hardly ever see any on the road. people who know their cars respect your choice. hopefully its not depreciating too much.

overall therefore - go for it. i don't reckon you'd lose too much having 100k on the clock vs 70k as long as the car had been maintained. alternatively go for a high miler now as there will be less price differential between a 100k and a 120k car. be prepared to spend money on it - however my calculations reckoned it would still be cheaper than the depreciation on a second hand car (example: the wifes Boxster has lost approx £10k over 3 years and we bought it second hand [:(]...)

the final way i justified it to myself was that if it did'nt work out i could sell the car, take a £2-4k hit and return to the company car scheme having learnt an expensive lesson...but its always better to regret what you have done than what you haven't.

best of luck

Matt
 
Well said Matt.

I was going to raise the issue about which model to buy. Everyone zeros in on the Club Sport, because for years it has been lionised by the motoring comics, but Matt has so eloquently pointed the short-comings of this stripped version for everyday motoring in wet and busy UK Plc.

I too set out to buy a Club Sport, but fairly soon came to the conclusion that the seats alone would drive me mad for day to day driving. I ended upwith a Coupe, leather seats/leccy windows/MP3 sound system, etc, etc, and all of this goes a long way to making up for the slight extra focus of the CS or Sport. After you have driven a few examples, you will also realise that the various versions are NOT as different as some of the comics would have you believe. For a surprising balanced view, read David Sutherland's piece in "911 and Pig World" last month (and marvel at your moderator's curly locks, since shorn off!)

It helps not to fixate on one model, as when you come to look, there are not many to choose from, and the best car you get offered, may not be the version you had in mind.

JH
 

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