Menu toggle

Oil...the bottom line?

Guest

New member
Sorry to bring this up again, but possibly this will help some folk to make a simple decision (including simple folk like me!).

Would it be correct folks, after reviewing all the evidence, that if you want the best oil to put in your car, it's gotta be an ester-based oil such as Silkolene Pro-S etc?

I'm convinced from what I've seen that it's even better than Mobil-1, which is not ester-based and will therefore not protect as well at crucial times such as at start-up. Does everyone agree?! Are we all going to change from a type IV oil such as Mobil 1 to a type V ester-based oil then? Prices seem similar.

I'm not asking for brand endorsements, just everyone's views on the engineering facts. Let battle commence...?!
 
Well, numerous threads on this forum, pistonheads etc, for example.

Aircraft engines have ester-based oil as far as I understand, because other oils are not up to scratch for this sort of punishment. Type V oils are ester-based as far as I undertand. Ester-based oils are more likely to stick to the metal parts in your engine, protecting them best during start-up (when most wear crucially occurs). Mobil 1 is a PAO type oil (type IV), which I gather is very good, but not quite as good as an ester-based oil. Try searching on the posts by Oilman, who certainly seems to know his stuff.

Does anyone disagree with this? I'm interested in views (with evidence), to the contrary, before I decide to change the type of oil that I put in my car. I always thought that Mobil 1 was the best you could get (and my indie uses it). Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the brand at all, I'm just interested in the science....
 
So am I as I am yet to see any highly respected technical folks in the Porsche community argue the case definitively for ester based is better. Yes they are used in aircraft engines but I don't happen to have an RB-211 strapped to the back of my car (imagine!).

All oils are a combination of ingredients and the base stock is only one part of the equation. I am in no way against ester based oils btw and use a lot of Motul products in my cars. It's probably more important if you have 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40 or 15W-50 in a 993 rather than what type of synthetic it is.

Ian.
 
I guess that we need to clarify first what esters and pao's are so lets start with this.

Esters

All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants work well from ""50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.

Due to their structure, ester molecules are "polar"; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is "boundary" rather than "hydrodynamic", i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the "hydrodynamic" film.

Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA's (Poly Alpha Olefins)

These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless "boundary" lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.

PAO's work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO's act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.

When we talk about oils which contain ester basestocks they are generally a blend of ester and pao. Only aviation oils as far as I am aware contain 100% ester hence their incredible cost but also incredible performance.

Top oils designed to be used in race applications like Silkolene Pro and Motul 300v contain a good slug of ester around 20% with the balance being pao.

To understand the types of basestock, you need to look at the API basestock classifications. I think I've posted this before but here goes again.

Basestock categories and descriptions[/b]
[/b]
All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

Group I

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

Group II

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

Group III

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as "hydrocracked" or "molecularly modified" basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

Group IV

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

Group V

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.

Finally, the quality of the oil you use should be selected on several criteria.

1. Cars use
2. Cost
3. Oil change periods

With regards to whether Porsche approves an oil - Not wishing to be controversial here but does this not apply to cars under warranty?

Just because an oil is not approved by Porsche, does it make it unsuitable?

The fact is that it's not to do with an oil failing Porche's tests but that it has not been tested and therefore does not appear on the list. In general, the main reason that oils are not tested is because the Oil Company does not wish to pay the high testing fees, not because the oil would not meet the required spec. It is no fluke that there are far more oils on the market that are Ford Approved than Porsche Approved, it is a far bigger market for the Oil Company, what would you do in their shoes?

If you take many high performance oils, especially race ones, they would exceed the performance of the likes of Mobil1 so why exclude using them unless of course the car is under warranty as you may give the Dealer an excuse to sidestep a problem if one occurs. Out of warranty the correct viscosity and quality for your application is the important thing.

Are esters better? Yes, from what eminent chemists have told me over the years I believe they are.

Do you need them? Application and Cost are the key.

In a track car or a car that is driven hard they are more essential than in a car that sits in the garage for 11 months a year and is never driven hard.

We're always here to help in the Oil/Fuel section, just ask...........we don't bite.

Cheers
Simon
 
Thanks Simon, I've found this very detailed reply to be really helpful.

Maurice - No stirring intended on my part at all. [:)]

I'm just a common or garden medic with a scientific training, who loves cars and engines in particular. I suppose my scientific training has taught me to look in a very evidence-based way rightly or wrongly. The 993 is a beautiful and superbly-engineered car and I am hoping to run mine as an everyday car into the distant future if Gordon Brown lets me. I don't know why, but engines that can do starship miles with little or no wear is something that I find fascinating. I must be really sad! [8D]
 
Blimey and I thought oil was something you found in an oil well. I use GTX Magnatec which was recommended to me by my indie specialist. I'm jolly pleased with it after nearly 5 years and 30,000 miles of use. I always thought mobil one was a bit thin and runny, and not particularly suited to higher mileage engines. I have no signs of excessive oil use or smoke yet.
 

Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members

Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the Club, who shall have no liability in respect of them or the accuracy of the content. The Club assumes no responsibility for any effects arising from errors or omissions.

Porsche Club Great Britain gives no warranties, guarantees or assurances and makes no representations or recommendations regarding any goods or services advertised on this site. It is the responsibility of visitors to satisfy themselves that goods and/or services supplied by any advertiser are bona fide and in no instance can the Porsche Club Great Britain be held responsible.

When responding to advertisements please ensure that you satisfy yourself of any applicable call charges on numbers not prefixed by usual "landline" STD Codes. Information can be obtained from the operator or the white pages. Before giving out ANY information regarding cars, or any other items for sale, please satisfy yourself that any potential purchaser is bona fide.

Directors of the Board of Porsche Club GB, Club Office Staff, Register Secretaries and Regional Organisers are often requested by Club members to provide information on matters connected with their cars and other matters referred to in the Club Rules. Such information, advice and assistance provided by such persons is given in good faith and is based on the personal experience and knowledge of the individual concerned.

Neither Porsche Club GB, nor any of the aforementioned, shall be under any liability in respect of any such information, advice or assistance given to members. Members are advised to consult qualified specialists for information, advice and assistance on matters connected with their cars at all times.

Back
Top