One of those days - a little help?

[smallspeed]

Yesterday was going so well; woke up with a killer hang-over after just 3 pints the night before, it was raining, the cat had thrown up on the front room floor, and I was out of life-restoring diet coke.. Decided to go to a pub about 5 miles from home for a spot of lunch; I knew it would be quiet as the football was on mid afternoon so there wouldnt be many people in there until then..

I lead, my mate followed, and just as I turned into the pub carpark, it all went a bit "james bond" as I laid down an oil-slick Q would have been proud of!.. The amount of honking and flashing from my mates car I knew something was wrong (or he just saw a topless cheerleader squad's tour coach) so turned the car of instantly and rolled into a space on an upslope to make rolling out again easy. I got out of the car to see my precious lubricant deposit itself all over the carpark... This photo is from an hour later (it was raining heavilly all day) so you can imagine how bad it was at the time

First though was get a tow from my mate with him Volvo, but alas I couldn't find the towing eye, so scratched the towing idea despite his sugestion to "just tie the rope to one of the front suspension arms" [] So, on the phone to the AA... The story unfolded thus;

14:00
Explained the situation; need towing, no towing eye, not enough clearance for an A-Frame, please send a flat bed. AA say someone will be there in an hour
15:30
Phone AA; where the hell are you?.. Computer system crashed at 2:30, lost all the jobs, however miraculously when they punched my membership number in all the details and the call where still there!.. someone will be with you within 45mins
15:50
AA guy turns up in a small van.. agree's can't be towed, and car is too low for an a-frame, so calls base and arranges a flat bed.. 1hr sir..
17:00
AA guy turns up in a tow truck with a fold out a-frame on the back, takes one look at the car and agree's with me its a no go, phones base and arranges a flat bed
17:45
rain stops for 1/2hr and the AA guy turns up with a flat bed, does a stirling job of loading and lashing the car taking a lot of care over the car, and drives me and the car at a sedate pace across leicester to my mates garage where I can take a proper look this evening

Got in at about 7:30 last night having gone out at 1 for some lunch, and still hung-over!!!
Right thats the rant bit over, time for the cry for help []

Im thinking because the oil poured out from the leading edge of the right rear wheel arch the problem is with the tubes/hoses from/to the oil tank to/from the engine, however because everything was covered in oil and it was lashing down with rain, I didnt really get much oportunity to investigate... Tonight Im going to strip that area out and take a proper look, however wondered if there's anything else I should add to the list of things to check at the same time? Also, if Im replacing the tubes or whatever it may be, and the oil, is there anything else I should do at the same time? Obviously the oil filters will get done, but not sure if there are some components in that area that might as well get replaced at the same time, or if there are parts that will likely need to be replaced (ie trim clips that may break, grommets that may be perished, etc).

Im quite glad this has happened when it did really, as it could have been so much worsel I dread to think what the result may have been had it happened at 80 in the outside lane of the motorway or something

Ben

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Ben,

I feel your pain!! I guess this is one of those things that many 911 owners live in fear of. The reality is, I'm sure, not as desperate as your initial thoughts might imply but looking at the photo I'd conclude that your guess is about right. That right hand side is where the oil tank/thermostat and pipework congregate so short of an engine failure that location is the most likely for any oil related tragedy

Given that the problem is likely to be a pipe or hose failure the solution is probably just going to be replacement. If the sideskirt/sharkfin have to come off (as they likely will) you're bound to need some of the fixing clips since they have a habit of breaking.. I can't see any reason for anything else to be replaced other than, as you say, a new oil filter with the new oil refill.

Good luck with the fix - make sure you report back once it's all sorted.

Regards

Dave

 

[smallspeed]

Thanks dave.. I actually bought a load of those clips and the seal's as the ones on my car are a bit tatty and I wanted to get the shark-fins and sill covers re-painted this summer, so should be ok with those parts. Im going to strip it down tonight; my fingers have been crossed since 7pm last night that the weather will stay dry, so if its raining Im changing religion (or getting one)

I dont think its engine related as the engine is sweet as a nut, but I will take lots of photos of the findings tonight, and if you're lucky some of me covered in oil (for the ladies)

ben

 

[smallspeed]

well I know what it is!.. Its the upper hose between the bottom of the tank and the inner wing pannel. This has split at the back where its under pressure from the braided hose which runs from the tank to the thermostat. Seems like a poor routing there as you can see where the two rub against each-other, and the steel braided hose obviously wins!..

The parts (decided to replace both short moulded hoses) total £23 and I should get them wednesday, but the oil... Mobil1 15w50 (recommended by OPC nottingham and OPC silverstone based on age/mileage/model) 15 quid a litre from OPC nottingham, 103 quid for 10l from opie oils, and just under 90 quid for the same from Halfrauds!..

will hopefully have her back up and running on wednesday night, so just intime for the weekend (and hopfully some better weather)

ben

 

[sbloxxy]

Hi Ben,
sorry to hear about your troubles: I had a problem (possibly about this time last year) with one of the hoses corroding and un-beknown to me, the specialist I trusted the car with had problems getting hold of a replacement hose. He therefore decided to have a new one made up covered in stainless steel braiding and presented this to me as a clever solution (along with a storming big bill). It now sounds that its that very hose that may have caused your current problem...
I'll kick the specialist concerned on your behalf when I next see him.
Steve

 

[smallspeed]

I design hydraulic systems for a living, so when I see things like that I get a bit concerned; its not a bad job, and he's got all the custom couplings and things correctly but Im not 100% sure its been assembled right.. Looking at it, it doesnt sit quite right in the car, and I reckon it will be a pig to get the top moulded hose back on as this hose is kind of forcing itself up against where the moulded hose wants to live. I think its just a case of re-orienting the hose a bit so will have a look at it when I re-assemble everything on Wednesday.

I may steal some hose protection from work and put it over the top of the braided hose; its like a smooth fabric sleeve which will do less damage than the braided hose, however I think the cure will be to get the two hoses routed away from each-other, so will slacken the braided hose at the tank and rotate it towards the front of the car a bit

These are the hoses that Im replacing; the top one of the two was split at the back. The bottom one is fine, however might aswell do both for the sake of a tenner. The top two are slightly out of alignment in this pic, and you can see the hose runs through the centerline of them; I think the hose is forcing the tank a little which isnt helping either, so a little re-orientation may be required before re-assembly. As you can see, lots of oil everywhere too, so time to get the gunk/brake cleaner out too!..

 

[Steve Brookes]

From your pictures the long braided hose looks like it could be too short and that's what is causing your routing problem. If that's the one that connects to the metal pipe coming from the thermostat housing it should route right up into the highest part of the wheel arch. As you know by now the long pipe should not be a braided one. Below is a pic of the thermostat arrangement behind the sharks fin if you want to check that too (not a pic from my car). Hope that helps and it sounds like you're doing a great job[]

 

[smallspeed]

Well had a look last night and it appears the hose is maybe a little short as sugested, hence the issue. I think Im going to remove it while the oils out of the car and get another made; as Im hydraulics-boy I can get this sort of thing done fairly cheaply so hopefully won't be too expensive. I might also remove the bulk hose from the thermostat (big one jubilee clipped to the top of the thermostat in the above picture) and replace that at the same time, as its going to cost pence and makes sense to do it while everythings off the car anyway; its looking a bit worse for wear although theres no rubbing or abrading on it..

Im still waiting for the moulded hoses from Porsche at the moment, so fingers crossed they will turn up before the weekend and I can get her back on the road over the weekend... I am so missing my flat-six []

 

[chrism964]

Smallspeed,
Isn't one of the issues that the braiding of the hydraulic hose is also more abrasive than the factory hose leading to wear? That and the natural tendency of the braided hose to pulse with oil flow is causing the rubber hose to wear through? The OEM hose is solid/moulded to the contour of the bodyshell as it pasess this point and so doesn't have the tendency for movement. Wouldn't it make sense (as you've gone to all this effort already) to replace it all with an OEM oil pipe now (costs about £150-170 plus vat) and remove the future anxiety?
Braided hoses look good but porsche don't often skimp (or get stuff too badly wrong). They use a braided hose for one of the oil lines from the engine IIRC and so would've done the same here if they thought it was necessary.
Just my 5 pence. Probably worth less than that (I have no hydraulics or engineering training)

Chris

 

[smallspeed]

£235 inc VAT, I asked yesterday... []
The hose I have has the correct formed tube end at the tank, so I think thats ok, but I will minimum strip the braiding and re-orient it, possibly dis-assemble the hose and increase the length a bit (the couplings are re-useable type, so not an issue getting the end parts; the tank end is a custom coupling)

I got a call this morning to say the other parts are in at my OPC, so scooting off there to get them tonight, and will rebuild/refill/re-acquaint over the weekend []

 

[smallspeed]

just realised that post makes me sound tight... Its not that peace of mind isn't worth 230 quid, its just we pay about 23 quid for similar hoses here, so Im reluctant to contribute to porsche being the most profitable car company on such a grand scale right now while I have alternatives available to me..

ben

 

[chrism964]

I didn't read it as sounding tight. There's a big difference between £50 and £235. It's nearly 3 tanks of fuel!
I hope it goes well this time.....

 

[smallspeed]

well its been a nightmare... firstly nottingham OPC struggled to get the parts in and then I ordered some more bits and confused them; finally got the parts on sat mid-day, and had a job on sat afternoon to sort out a Karmann Ghia so nothing much got done over the weekend.

Tonight I got the wheel off, and then couldnt split the braided hose from the connector; it appears to have been loctited in, presumably because whoever fitted it couldnt get it to seal properly. Removed the oil tank, and then couldnt get the hose out as the tube clashes with the inside of the wing because of the bend and orientation. At this point (after lots of swearing and bleeding) I decided to bite the bullet and cut the tube out; theres no point in leaving it in there as..

a) the tube is incorrectly oriented causing the hose to rub through the smaller return hoses which can't be corrected
b) the tube is fouling the oil tank and pushing it out of position
c) the tubes which the smaller hoses connect to are out of alignment

Basically when the new hose was fitted, the tube/coupling for the hose which routes around the bottom of the tank was formed incorrectly. It was also oriented incorrectly and this has caused it to clash on the underside of the tank and the inside edge. To make this work the top mounting tab for the oil tank has been cut through and the tank moved upwards and inboard about 1" from where it should be. Its sitting on top of the tube, and has pulled the short flexible hose connections across onto the braided hose causing the failure. Now its all stripped out its impossible to put back together as the two horizontal tubes are badly misaligned; the only way to do it without replacing the hose is to bodge it back in there and hope for the best.

Because the hose in there is incorrect Im going to have to either order a correct part from Porsche, or see if I can get lucky with a breaker who has a good fairly new hose in stock. If I can go the second route Ill replace the tank too and re-weld the mounting points onto the shell, if I have to go the OPC route Ill re-work the existing tank and re-fit

Will post more info as I go along, but resigned to being without the porker until the weekend at the earliest

Ben

 

[Steve Brookes]

Keep at it mate. It sounds like you know what you're doing. I think you're right to put it back to the configuration that it was meant to be. It'll be worth it in the end.

 

[smallspeed]

its typical that the weathers gorgeous and Im driving around in a £200 mondeo [:-]
also june is tax and mot month; it never rains...

 

[smallspeed]

Got the replacement oil hose last night, after a couple of days order time and 2hrs in the traffic to get from leicester to nottingham OPC. The one on the car was blatantly wrong and causing the issues, so decided to get the correct Porsche part and have done with it; while I can get parts made up on the cheap I was sure the one on the car was wrong and so copying that wouldnt get me anywhere...

I couldnt get the existing hose off the fittings due to thread sealant and so cut the tube under the oil tank and removed it in two parts; took 1/2hr hard slogging with a junior hacksaw to get through it as there's next to no access in that area (as can be seen in the picture of the white car above) [] my hands are like those of a deep sea fisherman, and if I wasn't such an avid nail biter, I would probably need a manacure

laid the parts next to each-other and they are quite different!.. Pics below, but in sumary, bent tube all wrong, hose is longer than the standard item, and the other end is an angled fitting rather than a straight. The tube is whats caused most of the issues as its pushed the oil tank out of location and mis-aligned the 4 conncting tubes in the wheel-arch. Ran out of time last night as it was getting dark v.quickly, but will get it all back together tonight and hopefully the weather will stay nice for at least one day over the weekend so I can have a nice drive out somewhere in it!..

ben

 

[smallspeed]

Cars back on the road []

I had got to the point where I was actually telling people "this £200 mondeo is a pretty good car" and then last night when I drove home in the 964 I realised all these things are relative; a £200 mondeo is good compared to walking...

Running really well and sounds healthy.. seems to run a little hotter but I guess it will take a little while for the oil to get into all the nooks and crannies, plus its 15w50 oil now, whereas I think it may have been a little thinner before. Oil pressure is good, only thing I think I may have overfilled it a bit; I was being really careful watching the level, checking and topping it up every couple of minuites until it settled out, and then when I went out this mornng its right at the top of the gauge and stays there all the time... going to check the dip-stick again before I drive home, then drain a litre off and check/re-fill if necessary, otherwise its spot on and GREAT to be back in the drivers seat again (rather than kneeling at the offside with the wheel off)

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice

ben

 

[Steve Brookes]

Great work[]