Onto front dampers, advice sought before I plough in - updated

[blease]

My garage told me the top bolts on the rear dampers were very tough to dislodge. They used a long breaker bar with car up on the ramp.

 

[zcacogp]

Good Q's. Top mounts cost a fortune. If the old ones are serviceable then re-use them for sure. Eccentric bolts at the bottom should be fine, if not then they can't be a fortune from OPC. They are just bolts. (I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't be re-used tho'. Treat them gently when you remove them - use some penetrant spray or similar - and they should be fine. Ditto with the castellated nut.) Rear bolts on the top and bottom of the shock absorber can be tight, but they are large and again you are unlikely to mangle them if you are sensible. The bottoms were very tight on mine, but a long breaker bar made them see sense. They are a steel bar into an alloy thread, so there will be some nasty electrostatics going on, but brute force always wins. Alignment: you NEED to have this done. You will be distrubing too many things to get away with just marking bolts when you remove them. And not having things aligned will spoil the car - they are very sensitive to a good alignment. You know what you need to do to get it to an alignment place (trip to the mainland, perhaps?), so make the necessary arrangements. Do the alignment after all the other work, but don't fail to get it done. Oli.

 

[diabloam]

Finished doing my belts and water pump when I was home last so next on the agenda when I get off this job I am on is suspension. Have already got new front sachs shocks and 500 mile old one for rear, going for new standard as given the nick of the roads these days I could not face stiffened suspension

I will prob see what the top mounts are like when I get the old struts off, but got a couple queries for all of you. First is it worth changing the top mounts since I'll have them off or if they seem ok should I just reuse them? Next my strut bolts are a bit crusty so where is best for getting replacements at a decent price, found one place but they seem to be after a fortune for just a bolt, albiet the top one is eccentric! any suggestions (also can you buy new track control arm castellated nuts)? I may just reuse the old ones but either way I am going to face the problem of alignment. Cause I stay in the sticks (Isle of Lewis, lol) I cant get four wheel alignment done here as there is a problem with the one garage that I thought could do it as the front and rear tracks are different widths which makes the machine they use throw a fit. I am changing the castor mounts for 968 ones at the same time so am basically going to be disturbing all the adjustable points on the front end. Question is, irrelevant of whether I reuse the old bolts or get new ones, can I get away with marking how they are on removal and then attemt to transfer these marks to the new struts, will I be able to get close? Or am I likely to be way out and make the car handle like a dog? Any suggestions as to how best I should tackle this.

Also with the rear struts, the bolt at bottom that goes into the alloy arm and also the top one that goes into a captive thread, are these known to be problem bolts to get out or should thay come out fairly easily with out damageing anything (i.e. shearing off or anything like that). Thanks for any pointers guys, appreciated as always

 

[chrisg]

Most of your question(s) have already been answered by my learned and esteemed colleague The Right Honerable Oliver..... To add to this, unless very badly crusted you should be able to re-use the camber bolts, particularly if you can apply heat to the nut (domestic blow torch) thereby preventing damage to either it or the head of the bolt whilst un-doing. If you have to, don't worry about trashing the none eccentric 'pivot' bolt - this is just a standard metric (m12 I think...) bolt and you can get an off the shelf number from any decent hard ware store. If you can save any of this hardware, try soaking it in concentrated citric acid for ~ 24hrs great for removing rust and assorted shite.... - citric acid either from a Pharmacy in Powder form or concentrated sachet from Tesco's etc for kettle descaling. Hate to admit it.... but Oli's spot on about the alignment you will need to have the front end set-up. No whilst I'm not dissing the 4 wheel laser alignment possie(s)..... There's a lot to be said for the old-fashioned way of camber gauge and tracking gear - every weekend in the racing season, there's hundreds of teams up and down the country double checking front and rear alignment with this kit before and after qualifying..... it does work and very reliably ! Rear shockers again don't be afraid to use some heat to assist things (be careful on the drivers side = fuel tank and lines....). Both bolts will and should be very tight, IIRC the top bolt has a nut on the inside (usually a porsche 'oval' or metal locking nut) rather than being captive - well certainly is on my turbo. Hope this helps, Chris

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: chrisg The Right Honerable Oliver.....

FAB! Thanks - I need a new sig! (Although I hope you won't mind if I spell it correctly? [] ) Oli.

 

[diabloam]

I guess I may have to have a trip away with car to get this done, however I am going to have to do it roughly to start with and drive it like that till can get chance to get away. What does everybody make of these magnetic camber gauges, are they accurate enough if used correctly cause I know sealey do one for twenty odd notes, anybody used one, any use?. In terms of the 968 castor mounts, is there anyway to measure the castor at home (castor is the lean of the strut - kinda like the amount it resembles a supermarket trolley wheel, yes? correct me if I am wrong on that), can you get cheap gauge for measuring that I wonder? I guess if I took it for a spin away to mainland all the bolts would be unsiezed so decent garage prob be happy to do it. I am going to slag the owner of the garage up here off about his gear, he has a bit of an ego and maybe I can get him to invest in new alignment gear, which be good, there defo a demand for it as loadsa car nuts up here. I guess the back dampers will be no probs as aint disturbing anything alignment wise, just a couple of big bolts to crack on each side, got a 1.5m breaker bar so guess that is going to be called into action, hopefully nothing there will strip or shear (I aint got oxy-acet, which I so wish i had for heating seized parts, am sure many on here would love gas also - damn handy) The replacement bolts I priced were from porscheshop, only place (is there anywhere else people know off?) could see them listed, but it be fifty odd notes with washers and nuts which although not a lot of money in real terms, does seem steep to me relative to what they are? Guess will see what the ones that come off are like, just like the top mounts. As an aside anybody replaced their tired standard stuff with new standard, my car has done about 96k and my dampers are original sachs ones, so am hoping for a good transformation with this stuff, are my hopes going to be in vain or should I get a great result, anybody done similar. Thanks guys

 

[zcacogp]

Alex, You can get simpler gauges - as Chris talks about - and they work perfectly if the car is put on a 100% level and smooth surface to do the alignment. If you have a large area of concrete which is 100% level (most concrete is fairly level but the more level it is the better the results you will get) then you could buy (/hire/borrow) some gauges and try to DIY it. However you do need to know what you are doing - both in terms of making the measurements and making the adjustments. And it would be no bad idea to have it taken to a pro to make sure you have it all correct when you are done ... Not sure how you would measure caster. It's the angle at which the king pin sits - how far back from vertical it is. Changing the rear dampers shouldn't change the alignment, as you say, but it's one of those things that will change over time and therefore you'd do well to check it once you have done the job. No need for Oxy-Acet with those nuts; use some plus-gas 24 hours before you get the spanners out, and a small domestic blowtorch if things get hairy. Try your OPC for those eccentric bolts IF they are damaged (and they shouldn't be). I think they are the same as on the front of a Mk1 Golf as well (924 used Mk1 Golf front suspension) so you could try the equivalent from VW. £50 sounds stupidly steep - get a local engineering company to make some up if need be (give 'em your old ones to copy). As Chris said, it's only the top ones that are unusual; the bottoms are standard stuff. How much difference will it make? How long is a piece of string ... in my opinion, a 944 with tired parts and a good alignment is a better proposition than a 944 with new parts and no alignment. Seriously. Don't skimp on that alignment. Oli.

 

[Oct]

You don't need oxy-acet for heating up seized bolts, you can get the little blowtorches from motor factors which will do the job.I resorted to using a chefs blowtorch on my caliper bolts to remove the threadlock.Took a bit longer but the flame was very accurate due to the fact that it was so small.

 

[Mike_Pollock]

If the eccentric bolts are like the 2.7s you will need to replace them - TOTALLY rusted 17mm spanner went on! I had to cut them off. But as mentioned above standard bolts will be fine and can be bought in tougher steel and tightened more if you're worried. One way of setting roughly is to take the wheel off and with a straight edge on the hub mark its traverse on the inside of the wheel arch - but get it set up properly asap. The rears are just hoof spanners and brute force. Take care to align the bottoms carefully as you can cross thread them!

 

[diabloam]

This is all great stuff guys, really appreciate the way everybody pitches in with info to help everybody out, really makes the difference. My mate has a new Focus RS and is on the relevent forums for that and he said it is full of knobbers who are right up themselves and are really patronising to guys asking for advice, especially fairly new guys. He enquired that he suspected the Porsche forums would be the same, and it was nice to say to him that no actually I havent come across a single twat on this site yet, its a credit to the club and everybody on here, well played guys. Anyway back on subject, I do have a blow torch that I got from Halfords ages back but to be honest the flame is huge no matter how much I adjust it down, and you cant really get things very hot with it, certainly was no use to me when I was doing my calipers! Welderswarehouse do a number of mini sets with replaceable cylinders they post to you (no rent, no inspections etc), see here [link=http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding/Gas_Welding___Cutting_Kits.html]http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding/Gas_Welding___Cutting_Kits.html[/link] Have been well tempted a few times, maybe when I can justify it, skinto the now as just bought a cracking Disco II V8 (lpg converted thank goodness, but way more complex than my diesel RR classic I have just regretable sold) and then bought my pals Freelander (complete with blown head gasket, lol) as a project (can anybody guess I have a Land Rover fetish to go with my 944 one, lol). So the gas gear will prob have to wait till the kitty is in better shape but thought would stick link on for those interested. Ill give all the bolts a good soak first in penetrating fluid and then see how it goes. Will probably have to get things as close as I can and then take it to a good garage away to get alignment done. Might invest in one of these camber guages as my garage floor is nice and level as did it myself and made a big effort to get it right. Any recommedations for good place in North of Scotland for alignment. Looking forward to car being all setup for the summer as after the suspension I reckon everything is done (lol, sure I will find something else to do though, theres always something and I still fancy a cream abd black interior). Should be home within a week so itching to get back in the garage and get everything sorted, will be posting back how I get on, thanks again

 

[diabloam]

lol, you can always tell when I am away working by the length of my posts and the number of times I visit the site! Sorry for the long winded posts guys but it breaks the monotony of work!

 

[Dockrell]

Diabloam, I changed the rear dampers on my 1989 car with 126,000 miles showing. I too was concerned with regard to the lower rear bolts - steel and alloy corrosion. I used an 18 inch breaker bar with a tight fitting socket and the lower bolts came out a treat - no need for heat. The old bolts cleaned up and were reusable. To get the top bolts out I used a long combination spanner with the ring on the top nut and the spanner fixed to the damper with two good tyraps - one at the top and the other at the bottom. With a socket and the breaker bar on the bolt head the top bolt was easily undone - the bolts were also reusable after cleaning up. On the front struts I got new eccentric bolts from my local Porsche centre - but cannot remember the price. I also fitted new top mounts which are very expensive. At least one of the old top mounts was shot - ball bearings rusted solid and then very lumpy when freed off. The other was not much better but after 22 years and 126,000 miles what do you expect. Mike White 2.7 automatic

 

[diabloam]

Hm well concerning top mounts I did a wee spy on the internet (seen Iam at work, lol) and there is a couple of options. Promax do KLA solid ones for about £130 a pair but I reckon they might be quite harsh and more suitable for the track. Porscheshop weirdly list up to -87 year 924/944 ones for about £34 each but after 87- 944 (inc turbo) ones for a shocking £304, so you guys werent kidding about the price. My car is an 86 model but I have suspicion I would still be looking at the later more costly one as think the early ones listed are actually for the early offset cars steel wishboned models (the ones with replaceable ball joints) although maybe somebody else can clarify this. Duetsh nine do rather nice looking adjustable ones for 400 odd but they also look ott for me, so guess I am going to be hoping mine are in good shape, lol, not sure can you get these elsewhere in uk, will need to look at Berlyn Services although hate crawling through that website as its so unfriendly to find stuff. So at a possible 600 odd a pair I am horrified at the price, lol, wonder if there is any other options? Eurocarparts dont list any so they are out also!

 

[chrisg]

Alex I invested in a go system pro blow torch from B & Q with a fine nozzle adaptor, total cost inc. gas cartridge ~ £25. Now I know you're up in the wilds and won't have a B & Q superstore on your doorstep, but you can buy them on-line: GoSystem Fine Flame Tech Torch EAN: 5036720205512 http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=11248039&fh_view_size=12&fh_start_index=36&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB%2fcategories%3c%7b9372015%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b9372043%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b9372176%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b9392053%7d&fh_eds=%c3%9f&fh_refview=lister&isSearch=false I previously had one of the general ones which was OK, but not much use for applying heat in very concentrated areas, Try one and see what you think ! Oh, by the way, as per my e-mail I've got a pair of very useable top mounts available should yours turn out to be shot and you can't afford the new ones, e-mail for details, Chris

 

[diabloam]

Hey Chris, that is the system of blow torch i have, so maybe I just have to get the fine flame burner (i.e. link you sent me). Another options I have is my mates pro plumber one which he uses at work (he is a plumber obviously) which I have used before and was lot better, will need to look into this when I get home. Will give you a shout when back as to whether I need the bolts of yo or not. It wasny really matter of affording them or not, just thought they were expensive for what they were so will see how it goes, cheers for that

 

[diabloam]

Got rear shocks on no bother, cheers for pointers guys, onto front, couple of queries Borrowed a longacre castor/camber gauge from my friends dad who bought it to do his Cobra replica, nice bit of kit once you suss it out, managed to use its magnetic mount onto the disc through the spokes on my cup wheels (new disc so nice and flat and no run out) and got the following values, Drivers side Camber +1/4 degree, Castor +2 degrees and on Passenger side Camber -1 degree and castor +2 degrees. Car drove great and steering fine so assume I should go for +2 on the castor on reassembly, but what should I try get the Camber to ideally on reassembly. Second query, I actually have new control arms and ends I got off ebay ages ago, however to be honest the ones on it are fine (in terms of wear) so was going to reuse them as if I understand correctly I will bugger the seals on the power rack if I try to remove the arms with the PS rack still on the car and since the rack was done not long before I got the car I aint into going for that. However the nuts on the track control arm ball joints look in a bad way and I reckon if I get them off they wont go back on. They are very corroded but look like they are castle nuts with split pins however these new arms I have, have no hole for a split pin and look like they take a nyloc nut although they came with none on them. If I get these old castle nuts off ok can I just use a nyloc nut. As far as I can make out they look like metric fine threads which I am struggling to locate locally, can anybody recall if I am correct in saying they are M12 Metric fine nuts that go on these track control end ball joints? I got some nuts to fit but they aint nyloc and dont really want to just chance it with threadlock. Are some (i.e the ones on my car) drilled for castle nuts and split pins and if so are later ones using nyloc like the new spares I have. Whats everybody suggestion on dealing with this, should I butcher old nuts off and get replacement nylocs for reassembly, should I try change whole old arms for these newones (can it actually be done on car or will I bugger rack) or should I just swap the ends over (the ends on old ones look well solid although I had the tracking done about a year ago so guess they must have moved them then), whats everybodies experiences of this. Also looking at them can I just get the strut off the hub and just leave the track control arms attached to the hub and avoid the hassle altogether (although if the nuts are so corroded should I be changing them anyway for safety). Everybody know what these can be like when the whole ball joint turns and you cant get the nuts off or on again! Also snapped one of the anti roll bar links whilst taking them off wishbone. Last time I snapped the other side and paid almost £40 for replacement with out rubbers, which seems steep for a bit of tube with a threaded rod coming off it, anybody recommend a alternate source for these. Sorry again for my customary long post but always like to research what I am getting into before I go and screw it up anyway, lol, any pointers appreciated as always, thanks all

 

[Fat Albert]

I have just ordered all 8 front ARB bushes and one drop link from Cambridge OPC for £46 inc Vat

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Camber - think Andy - Hairyarse - got some figures recently for his so suggest search on here. Early cars certainly have castle nut - just use nylocs - think M8 fine but if it ain't broke.... Where did the ARB link come from? - seems steep, try OPC as Fat Albert says and other usual suspects!

 

[Jonny944CS]

Hm well concerning top mounts I did a wee spy on the internet (seen Iam at work, lol) and there is a couple of options. Promax do KLA solid ones for about £130 a pair but I reckon they might be quite harsh and more suitable for the track. Porscheshop weirdly list up to -87 year 924/944 ones for about £34 each but after 87- 944 (inc turbo) ones for a shocking £304, so you guys werent kidding about the price.

Probably a bit late now, but if you car is an '86, it should have the short front alu wishbones (no hole in the middle). The correct top mounts for these are the cheaper £34 versions you mention. The same part as early 944 and all 924's. Porsche introduced the expensive/stiffer/complex 87-on jobbies to allow them to account for a 4° change in McPherson strut angle without having to change the mounting points on the inner wings - a consequence of the longer wishbones and various other parts introduced to accommodate ABS.

 

[diabloam]

That price for link was from Porsche shop and do feel its a bit steep, you guys reckon try opc? Anybody got any other suggestion as going to tackle this affa do I actually need to disconnect the track rod ends or can I remove the damper without? thanks all