PASM makes me (car)sick

[James_G]

Chaps,

Don''t tell the 944 boys, but I am planning on selling on my two cars and turning them into a Cayman. As a result I've been out looking at the second hand market and to that end my local OPC, who have been most helpful.

So yesterday I tried a PASM equipped S running 19s. Much discussion has passed by in this forum and elsewhere saying that running 19s without PASM is a real no no, but I wonder, do any of those equipped with PASM use Sport mode on the road? I was heading up the A3, itself reasonably smooth, and in Sport mode it is simply too jiggly. Probably very useful on the track however, although I won't be using mine for that.

Anyway, I then popped it back in to Normal but I am sorry to say that after a 30 minute test drive I got out of the car feeling decidely sea-sick and I am sure I felt the car pitching fore and aft a lot. Is this the sort of thing others have expereinced? This was in stark contrast to the previous S I drove, which had no PASM but was also running 19s. The ride on that felt just the right side of sporty, and it felt just more natural through the twisties.

So I've decided a non PASM car it is, but curious to hear the views of others.

 

[spyderman]

Be sure to ask the Boxster drivers too. I've read quite a few posts that suggest PASM's Sport setting isn't a lot of use on British roads, but at the same time the Normal setting makes 19s a lot more bareable. I too would be concerned about the ride on 19s since my lovely 18" Carerra Classics are bad enough! But with the Gen.2 models, the nicer wheels are all 19".

 

[Dylan1]

This was in stark contrast to the previous S I drove, which had no PASM but was also running 19s. The ride on that felt just the right side of sporty, and it felt just more natural through the twisties.

i have beautiful 19"carrera s alloys with no pasm and i have found it perfect on both normal roads and track,especially since the change to michelin pilot sports.no regrets and would absolutely choose the same again after 3yrs of ownership of my 1st cayman s good luck on your hunt

 

[mikec]

I'm the same as Dyllan, 19's and no PASM and I find it fine for everything. The occasional pothole does thump a bit, but I just use the extra cash I saved from not ordering PASM to cushion the bump[] I can't say the same for the girlfriend/handbrake, depending on her mood. She does get a bit travel sick when I drive on twistier roads. I got a 997 demo for the day and even in PASM sport mode she was fine, I reckon it was the brighter cabin that helped, not the suspension.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: James_G Don''t tell the 944 boys,

Spotted. But don't worry we're just insanely jealous [8D]

 

[okellyt]

James I think PASm is a bit like Marmite - love it or hate it. I had PASM and Sports Chrono as options on my second Boxster (987) and loved it. However the Sport Suspension setting is too hard for UK roads and is really only for track work or similarly smooth roads in Europe. Comparing to my normally sprung 986 I found it more comfortable on motorway cruising and better able to deal with big potholes/ mid corner bumps etc without the kick back I got with the normal suspension. However if it genuinely makes you feel sea sick then maybe its not for you (back to the marmite description above).

 

[Alex Postan]

My experience of the PASM system is that it responds to the task presented - i.e. the harder you work the car, the firmer the damping and in normal use you gain the benefit of a comfortable setting. The sport button is purely an overide to set the system to its stiffest setting. I wouln't be without it. I am lucky in that senior management doesn't get car sick and is able to stay head down reading a map or roadbook even when the motor and suspension are working hard.[]

 

[RICH.P]

I'm also running on 19" wheels with no PASM. No regrets whatsoever, suits me fine, especially my partner who suffers with travel sickness on anything softer.

 

[Alan_Armstrong]

I'm with Alex on this, even whilst in normal mode, when 'getting a move on' causes the system to stiffen accordingly, and in my view is great marmite![]

 

[JohnP]

Hi everyone I have just taken the step James_G is considering. In my case I moved on a 968CS and a 993, with a total of 230k miles and have replaced them with an 06 Cayman S with 25k on the clock. All three cars have lots to offer (they are, after all, Porsches) but I think I have an ideal compromise in the Cayman; the balance of the 968 plus a little more power than the 993. Mine has the 19" wheels, Sports Chrono and no PASM and, despite all the journalistic scribblings, gives me no problems at all. Mind you the 968 and the 993 (M033 supension) were reasonably firm cars as well. The Cayman covered 2k miles over mixed roads on a Scottish trip last weekend, driven by me and a number of very good drivers and nobody had anything other than praise for the car. Certainly no one complained about the ride being too firm. Me? I love it! John

 

[Black80XSA]

Everyones preference for ride quality/handling is different. PASM in sport and 19s is very hard IMO, and it can jolt your back on unseen compressions on the road (M6 Toll especially - super smooth tarmac, but a few dips where the levels aren't quite right !). I've used it in sport for a while running up through Wales on the big A roads and generally its been OK provided you avoid cats eyes and rougher patches of road. However 99% of the time mine is in normal mode. Admittedly after being in sport for a while it can feel a bit floaty in comparison for the first 30 seconds or so, but overall normal mode is an excellent system and produces a great compromise of comfortable driving without roll and certainly no front/rear pitching. Given all the issues Richard had with his PASM equipped cars (and its only Caymans that seem to be affected from all the forums i've read), i think there may be a few quirks with the PASM system on Caymans. I'd try another car before you rule it out for certain.

 

[richardheeley]

For my pennyworth: I'm now on my third Cayman S. First two had PASM on 18s, the latest has normal dampers on 18s. Personally I didn't really like the floaty, bouncy feeling with PASM in normal mode, although my new, non-PASM car, is definitely harsher riding. As Alex has pointed out above, the PASM system is variable so even in normal mode the settings range between soft for relaxed driving and firm once you start pushing on a bit. As a Porsche technician once explained to me PASM in Normal mode uses an envelope somewhere in the 0-8 range, while Sport mode moves the envelope to something more like 6-10 range. A non PASM car is roughly equivalent to 7 all the time. It's also worth remembering that PASM can counter pitch and roll by using variable damper rates front to back and side to side. All of this means that a PASM equipped car can corner flatter and harder while maintaining a less harsh ride than a normally suspended car. The holy grail you might think. However, I have my reservations. Firstly, I prefer to know exactly how my car is behaving and how it's going to behave in any given situation. My PASM cars didn't always react in a predictable way. Secondly, I had technical problems with both my PASM cars which I strongly suspect (but cannot prove) had something to do with the variable dampers. If PASM isn't fitted, it can't go wrong. For me PASM vs normal dampers is a bit like CD vs vinyl. Although CDs sounded much clearer than records and were hiss free from the start, it took a long time for CDs to develope the same 'soul' as records - and some will argue that they haven't got there yet. I'm happy with my 'analogue' suspension, although I'm looking forward to wearing out my Bridgestones and replacing them with Michelins. The Bridgestones really do feel quite harsh without PASM to smooth them out. Final suggestion: Drive both and choose whichever one feels best to you. That will be the right choice.

 

[okellyt]

ORIGINAL: richardheeley For me PASM vs normal dampers is a bit like CD vs vinyl. Although CDs sounded much clearer than records and were hiss free from the start, it took a long time for CDs to develope the same 'soul' as records - and some will argue that they haven't got there yet. I'm happy with my 'analogue' suspension, although I'm looking forward to wearing out my Bridgestones and replacing them with Michelins. The Bridgestones really do feel quite harsh without PASM to smooth them out. Final suggestion: Drive both and choose whichever one feels best to you. That will be the right choice.

CD vs Vinyl - Vinyl wins hands down in terms of absolute quality of reproduction, it contains about 4 -6 times the data and data sampling rate, CD due tot he nature of how it records/reproduces looses "ambience and atmosphere" translation - not all the data is captured so cant be reproduced. Thing is CD doesn't have hiss and crackle and has the convenience of compact size and the ability to jump tracks from the hand set. Bridgestones - nice. Michelines, awesome Last point is dead right - in a marmite world you drive/buy/listen too what you prefer personally and ignore the experts. As long as you buy the PASM car and prefer Vinyl that is[][][]

 

[milleman]

Went for 19" alloys and PASM on my S when I chose the spec in 1997, when I tried the dealers demo with this spec I thought the ride quality was OK and as I loved the looks with 19" wheels went for this spec. After using the vehicle for two years (and a few track days), I am happy with the PASM although sport is WAY too hard to use on anything other than newly surfaced tarmac. Changed my mind with the wheels though, have recently swapped to 18" which has brought about a considerable improvement in the ride quality. The 19" tyres just do not have enough sidewall to absorb rough roads. Its a much better car with the 18" wheels on. Neil.

 

[Pastry]

ORIGINAL: okellyt CD vs Vinyl - Vinyl wins hands down in terms of absolute quality of reproduction, it contains about 4 -6 times the data and data sampling rate, CD due tot he nature of how it records/reproduces looses "ambience and atmosphere" translation - not all the data is captured so cant be reproduced. Thing is CD doesn't have hiss and crackle and has the convenience of compact size and the ability to jump tracks from the hand set.

vinyl is analogue it doesn't sample at all. sampling is a attribute of digital recording. in theory anyway everythings digitally mastered these days. ;p gadget show presenters rated mp3 over either cd or vinyl, not that theyre experts, but it shows how subjective things are. As for driving aids I like my inputs and outputs analogue and without computer interference

 

[tscaptain]

ORIGINAL: Pastry As for driving aids I like my inputs and outputs analogue and without computer interference

ABS too? Just curious.

 

[Pastry]

ABS is fine, had it on previous cars. Never triggered it personally but have experienced it as a passenger. Perhaps doesnt have as positive affect on safety as it should; http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html

 

[tscaptain]

Hmm, how did you find that, Rick! That's interesting, so the cab drivers with ABS, knowing they had it, took more risks and thus had the same, if not more, accidents than those without it! Interesting also that the accident rates fell when they had to pay for their own repairs! Taxi drivers apart, ABS is probably better for Mr/Mrs Average Driver to have in an emergency than not? As long as they have been trained and know not to let off when the pedal starts pulsing! And there's not snow on the road....... BTW, back on thread, I have PASM and it's great on the Gen 2.

 

[Pastry]

It was interesting, approaching what appeared to be curve in the road that turned out to be an unmarked junction. Felt like hitting a rumble strip, thankfully car stopped in time road was clear anyway. I'm sure it is safer for Mr/Mrs Average. Probably safer for everyone else too especially for unpredictable/unexpected grip conditions. Sorry for the thread diversion[8D]

 

[okellyt]

ORIGINAL: Pastry

ORIGINAL: okellyt CD vs Vinyl - Vinyl wins hands down in terms of absolute quality of reproduction, it contains about 4 -6 times the data and data sampling rate, CD due tot he nature of how it records/reproduces looses "ambience and atmosphere" translation - not all the data is captured so cant be reproduced. Thing is CD doesn't have hiss and crackle and has the convenience of compact size and the ability to jump tracks from the hand set.

vinyl is analogue it doesn't sample at all. sampling is a attribute of digital recording. in theory anyway everythings digitally mastered these days. ;p gadget show presenters rated mp3 over either cd or vinyl, not that theyre experts, but it shows how subjective things are. As for driving aids I like my inputs and outputs analogue and without computer interference

That'll teach me never to simplify anything on this forum[] The rate of data flow from vinyl (reproduction of sound wave) if treated as an equivalent to digital is between 4 -6 times as much information per second compared to the CD format. In scientific terms it is a much more accurate reproduction of the original sound. Went on some lectures at Manchester University about this years ago, forgot most of it.[>:] This is basically why the Audiophiles toyed with SACD (4x sampling rate as CD, 24 bit versus 16 bit) as it gave almost the same amount of accuracy in recreating the sound wave form as analogue (it was reaching the point that scientists argued the brain could not differentiate what was missing, the brain definitely can with CD). Ironically on blind listening trails most people thought it was vinyl with some clever way of eliminating the noise. It defiantly sound more like Vinyl than CD. Curious.[&:] Most digital recording studios use a much higher sampling and bit rate and then mix it down to fit the format (CD was a 1980's standard to allow cheap mass production at the time). Typically SACD is the minimum recording standard. Some even record on analogue still and transfer to digital afterward. Most high end amps that bands use are valve driven anyway and just for amusement the Chrystal Microphones form the 50's are still rated by some as unsurpassed in their ability to reproduce the human voice. So a bit like Concord, in terms of absolute quality of product its arguable that we are heading backward. Am I convinced, I don't know but the argument is interesting. Its another marmite argument (like it or hate it) [8|] MP3 of course is lossy, at best you are about 90% of CD quality, it can be a lot worse if you use high compression algorithms. Now if you buy Oasis and Robbie thats fine - they are two of a range of artists who recognise their music is mostly played on getto blasters/all in one systems/MP 3 so mix the quality of their recording down to make sure its sounds "good" on these systems. So as you rightly said, subjectivity is everything and most people would prefer the sound of something that in actual fact is the least accurate reproduction of the music but "sounds good" - whats right is what you like To bring that back to cars, Eurobox versus Porsche? I like my cars analogue but I also like the convenience of digital especially if you can choose which bits are on when. Having been on several Porsche driving courses however I appreciate hugely the electronic aids PSM, PSAM, ABS - try the low grip "wet surface" that mimics ice without the aids and try and stop in a straight line. Now imagine your on a narrow road with pedestrians and oncoming vehicles, its late and your tired........ Even if you control the car manually if a slide starts there will be an accident (not enough space for corrective maneuvers). 9 time out of 10 the electronics just contains it. So analogue with a digital back up for when I want to take it easy (hmmm Vinyl for sitting and listening, CD for background when I am doing other things - there is a parallel there)