Porkers future..what do you think

[Grant]

Interesting to see elswhere that Porsche sales of 911 & Boxter have dropped dramatically in the states, whilst the Cayenne has sold boatloads. I think we all knew the Cayenne would be a goer, just look at the number of 4x4' s on the road (particularly in the states) & add in Porkers prestige badge..SOLD.
But I think the 911 & Boxter sales also tell a tale (appreciating that they also have a recession over there & the current range is now relatively old !!) the latest facelifts were very conserative particularly on the Boxter & the competition has played catch up. The new Z4 for example looks great & drives very well for less money, I' m no BMW fan but it' s true. The " S" is much better but about £10k more !! We now also have a fleet of Merc' s & Audi' s that can keep up with (at least on the straights) or go faster than the 996TT let alone the rest of the Porker range. I know there is much more to drivers car than just power & I love my car (& certainly don' t hanker after an AMG) but I think Porsche MUST look carefully at the 997, which is still just another facelift in reality. I for one don' t want to step back in time to the 993 look they are suggesting, been there, seen & done that !! I would like to see a sleek modern design alla Carrera V10, the boxter with 300hp plus (easily done) C2' s with 400 & the Turbo up to 500+ with ceramic brakes as standard on the TT & the current TT brakes on the other 996' s. Porkers have always been seen as the pinacle of high performance motoring, long may this be so. Rant over !!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU THINK ??????????????????????

 

[Guest]

There was talk recently (and photo' s too) of a new front engined V10 beast. It looked absolutely awesome like the illegitimate offspring of a 968 and a TVR. I' ll try to track down a photo.

 

[Guest]

100% agree with Grant.

The Boxster needs around the 300bhp mark.
The 997 needs around the 400
Turbo 500-550.

The Boxster needs to fend of the other rag top manufacturers and with the handling, 300 would put it in a league of it' s own. I' d change the back end to make it flatter and do something to lift the cabin a little.

The 997 has to be above the Japanese brigade to justify the additional expense. It also has the TVR' s and the baby Aston to contend with. Eventually TVR will get something reliable, even if it is only by accident.
I think the syling is important. I needs to more the design on, not become retro-chic. Arguably the longevity of the model is down to it' s evolution, stylistically as well as mechanically. Aerodynamics force Porsche' s hand, even if it not so important for the road, it matters on the track.

The Turbo has to be able to live with the AMGs etc. in a straight line.
I think it manages against Ferarri and Lambo since, it is still cheaper.

Whilst cars such as the Carrera GT are interesting and point to future technologies, in reality they are a bit of a distraction since few can afford them and they will not be seen driving around, so do nothing for the brand image.


Porsche are known for the engineering abilities, so they need to be seen to be ahead of the others. In addition to the brakes, what about filtering the ceramic clutch from the Carrera GT down too. I' d like the standard seats to have deeper side bolsters as well.
I know they are conservative with the engine outputs in order to preserve the reliability, but I think they could go further. Alternatively the engine upgrades they offer, which are not that cheap, should give a greater improvement.

I also think, following on from Le Mans discussions, that Porsche should have some full works teams competing in a couple of different formulae. They can' t just rely on customers, and their image depends on these activities.

I do not believe they would have developed the engine for the Cayenne just to use it in one vehicle. I believe they will produce another car, a proper 4 seater. I suspect front engined as a successor to the 928. Whether it will be 2 or 4 doors I' m not sure, I guess 2.

The real challenge is to be bold, since the temptation is just to tweak so as not to take too much of a risk.

 

[Grant]

Stuart, interestingly I went to one of the " clinics" on the new AMV8 at the Aston Martin factory, the car looked great, will have 380hp & weigh less than the 911 & have 50/50 weight distribution. But cost circa £70k. as you say yet another reason for Porsche to make the 2005 model year changes major.

 

[Guest]

I think the new Aston looks great, but for me, I have trouble buying in to the image. I just keep thinking of Ford badge engineering.
I suspect the weight will increase when it comes to it, cars always end up heavier than expected when the makey production. I also wonder if Aston are up to making it handle well enough. From a reliability perspective, it would be more of an unknown quantity.

I forgot to mention we also have the V10 engined BMW M5 coming, there is the current M3 (20K+ cheaper), as well as a rumoured 400 bhp Impreza replacement.
Alfa are supposed to be going after the 911, but dodgy Italian build quality and electrics don' t worry me too much.
I think the Aston is the biggest threat.
Ford are not getting value for money from the Aston brand, so have to increase sales (they are " too exclusive" ). If the AMV8 fails, then Aston would be in trouble, so they have much to lose.

I would however much rather see the 997 move the game on and trounce the opposition, and see the Boxster replacement (987?) thrash the Z4 et al.

I was also thinking about whether power is so important or torque, or performance figures for bragging rights. The alternative is to make the cars lighter. 1.5 tons is a little porky for a porker.

 

[JCB..]

Each to his own.

To me the pre-face list Boxster still looks as fresh as a daisy and knocks any other roadster into a cocked hat in looks, praticality and all round performance.

(Slightly biased as I' ve a MY2000 car)!

JCB..

Afterthought

Are US sales drops confined to Porsche 996 and 986 cars? - I suspect not..

 

[Helen Goff]

I agree Digger i love the orange indercators on my 2000 black boxster. can' t see the point of spending money changing them.

spos i might feel diffrent if i had a silver car!

 

[Guest]

The press releases are on the Porsche web site (sometimes takes a couple of days to appear). Figures are as below, Bopxster is worst hit, but Cayenne more than makes up for it.



Continued growth for Porsche in North America

Stuttgart. In June 2003, Stuttgart-based Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG again sold more vehicles than in the corresponding month last year. In total, customers took delivery of 2,892 vehicles. In comparison to June 2002, when 2,285 units were sold, this represents growth of 27 percent. The driving force behind this growth was the Cayenne, which for the third month in a row proved how well it has been received in North America. Having been launched on the North American market in mid-March, this off-road Sport Utility Vehicle sold 1,500 units in June alone. This impetus from the Cayenne was decisive in making last month the second best June ever for Porsche in North America.

Faced with tough market conditions, the trend in sports car sales was, by contrast, decidedly weaker. Only 1,392 vehicles were sold, equating to a reverse of 39 percent on the previous year, when sales for the corresponding month totalled 2,285 units. The 911 series accounted for 842 of this June' s figure (down 24 percent), and the Boxster 550 (down 53 percent). This trend underlines the wisdom of the decision to safeguard Porsche' s growth over the long term by introducing a third model line. As Porsche Group' s most important market, this is especially true for North America, where Sport Utility Vehicles in general are in strong demand.

 

[Rodney Naghar]

Grant I think you' re absolutely right regarding the increased competition, it should, and am sure is, a concern to all at Porsche. However, I am only really concerned about the Z4 the Aston and the M3.I am not too worried about the competiton from the Japanese Max Power lot, if 0-60 is all you want then that is where you go at a much cheaper price. I doubt Porsche regards them as stiff competition. I for one never considered them before I bought my boxster, and I thrash my car every single time I use it! Its the all round package I was after, and that' s also why I never considered the Honda S2000, and especially not the AudiTT. Too much of one and not enough of the other.

But people dont just read 0-60 figures and buy a car, most car mags dont really care too much about the 0-60 figures when comparing cars, its because there are so many other factors at stake. That brings me to the AMG. A friend just bought a 500SL AMG and thinks his old Jag XK8 was better. The drive is so sterile, so lifeless, so overengineered. I had a ride in it, I almost died of boredom. The 0-60 is phenomenal, the rest isn' t.

The Aston on the other hand is cheap, looks fantastic, has the pedigree and will pose a serious threat to the 996TT, and Carreras surely wont be able to compete, especially considering their poor depreciation figures.....

 

[JCB..]

There seems to be a lot of hype about the new Aston taking over the world... not bad for a car that is not in the showrooms.[8|]

 

[Helen Goff]

they will need a much bigger factory than the one at newport pagnel if they intend to take over the world![8D]

 

[Guest]

The Aston on the other hand is cheap, looks fantastic, has the pedigree and will pose a serious threat to the 996TT,

Not sure it is intended to take on the turbo, but the C2/C4. It will be cheaper and less powerful than the turbo.

 

[Guest]

they will need a much bigger factory than the one at newport pagnel if they intend to take over the world!

But they have the might of the Ford Empire to draw upon. However, in practice I think they would be happy with quite modest sales to start with.

 

[Kevin Cooke]

The 996 owner is certainly the new Astons target market. I expressed an interest and followed that up with a letter to my local dealer as they all request (As evidence of interest).

Once they know you own a 996 you get the full red carpet treatment, invites on factory visits driving days etc. I cancelled my factory visit due to work commitments but I' m certainly going to re-arrange it. I also understand that invites are going out to 996 owners to be on ' focus' groups to help finalise the spec.

In America one of the key complaints of 911 owners is that you have to drag the golf clubs out from the back hence the hatchback for the new Aston, sod what its done for torsional stiffness.

I can think of a lot of Porker owners who would own an Aston if they could afford one so I think the new Aston will take 996/997 sales and introduce a lot of people to Aston ownership just as the Boxster did for Porsche.

I' m not sure the production capacity of the new factory but I think now that all Aston engine production is moving to Germany it will be up there with Porsche 996 capacity.

Regards

 

[Guest]

I also understand that invites are going out to 996 owners to be on ' focus' groups to help finalise the spec.

Shouldn' t Porsche do the same for the 997? Or do they in Germany?

 

[Guest]

I tried hard to get an invite to the 997 launch - even contacting the head of Marketing in Stuttgart. Official response is that ' there are no model changes planned for the 911' . This did not stop them accepting my deposit for a 997 turbo cab...

 

[Guest]

This only goes to reinforce my opinion of the 996 when it first came out, in that it was more of a GT than a sports car, as 911s used to be.

I appreciate that progress has to occur, and that the 996 is a much better all round package, but the edge (or should that be into the ' edge backwards !) has gone slightly, if only in shape. The old style (964 and previous) is a much more recognisable/individual shape, as indicated by it' s used in insurance etc. ads.

If you think I am biased, maybe, as I can' t afford one.

 

[Guest]

more of a GT than a sports car

I' ve been thinking about that. I think there are several points:

1. Modern cars are heavier. You have the safety features, such as side impact door beams, driver and passenger airbags, side airbags, selt belt pre-tensioners, force limiters, collapsable steering columns, crumple zones, to add weight.
You have the refinement issues, such as sound deadening material, electrically adjustable seats, electric bonnet/boot releases, electric windows, electric door mirrors, power steering, etc. which add weight.
Then you have the modern features such as multi-speaker (12) stereos, with amps, cd auto-changers, sat nav systems, telephones, auto dimming mirrors, which also add weight.

I think it is the weight that makes the car feel more solid and gives the suspension something to work against. This improvement in ride quality makes the car feel more solid, but less alive. You are also aware of the inertia when braking and cornering.

2. The creature comforts and sound deadening make the car more refined but detract from the raw back-to-basics appeal. The issue is that most peoples expectations are that when spending 911 money, they want more than a shell with a seat in it. Although you can get rid of most of the options, come trade in, it affects the resaleability, so you feel obliged to get most of the options.
The opposition and cars in general have much higher levels of equipment than they used to. Porsche cannot stand back and not offer similar levels.

3. The brand image is best served (aside from winning on the track) by having cars used everyday and seen out on the streets in the real world. Ferrari realised this also, and have striven to produce more user friendly cars that can be used for more than a handful of afternoons a year. They do not want cars languishing in garages.
If you make a car to be used everyday, it has to have some of the refinements.
Mitsubishi and Subaru face the same issue. Each version of the Evo and Impreza are getting heavier, with better interiors, more mid range torque, etc. They are also getting less raw. This is what the market wants.
Cars like the GT3 are interesting and fine for what they are designed for, but they are not the main story, just a niche product (in the nicest possible way of course). If the GT3 was the only 911 model, they would really struggle.

4. A significant proportion of 911 buyers buy into the image, heritage and status. It is part of marketing to create a brand and capitalise on it. These people do not want something that may spit them off the road backwards, they do not drive them that hard, they want the electronic angel sitting on their shoulder for when conditions are tricky of they are driving home tired.

The challenge is to produce a vehicle that has the safety features, the creature comforts, the agility and poise, and the performance, together with enough of a bite that it deserves respect. I guess Porsche would say they have this in the 996 Turbo, but not everyone can afford one of them. The issue then is what should the C2, C4, C4S, represent and stand for?
The problem has been the lack of opposition. I think the sales figures show that the Boxster and 911 have some opposition. I am not convinced that buyers in their price brackets are drying up due to recession - I think they may be going elsewhere. The question has to be why and how to reverse that.

I wonder also if Porsche are reaching the point where they have too many 911 variants.

Another consideration is that they have all this in hand, but do not want to say anything, If the next iteration of the cars, 986 and 996, are blinding, together with perhaps a new model, then they do not want to say anyhting now, or all sales dry up for the next 6 months or more while everyone decides to wait.

From a shape perspective, perhaps in 10 or 15 years, they will be using 996s in adverts, once it has matured a little. It will be seen as the precursor to the radical 998 and fondly remembered.

 

[Guest]

Forgot to mention some other improvements.

I think the 996 should be lower. Not necessarily lower the ride height, but have the seat closer to the floor, so that the roofline can be lower. Lower then dash as well of course so that the visibility remains.

I wonder if some sort of venturi under the body might be in order. Ferarri and Lotus are going that way, and Porsche are supposed to be at the fore front.

I wonder is active ride would be useful, then you could have it scraping the ground on the motorway/autobahn/track, but still use it everyday and negotiate speed bumps and car park ramps.
The same applies to the front splitter, have this lower at speed to reduce airflow under the car, but retain the low speed practicalities of being able to get into a pub carpark.

From a security perspective I would add a laminate or plastic film to the side windows.

They could also add the see-round-corners headlights, although I am not completely convinced yet.

The cup holders should be deleted - I hate them.

A shorter thow on the gear lever would make it better.
Make the indicator stalk a bit more sturdy.
Make the doors unlock when you turn off the ignition.
Have electronic tyre pressure monitors (like on the Cayenne).
Make the sports exhaust standard.

 

[Rodney Naghar]

Some very good points Stuart.

Wasn' t the DB7 supposed to be the killer blow to the C2/C4 brigade? That ended up just being a poser' s car, with most of the motoring press lambasting it for poor reliability, poor handling, and tank like performance. Will the new Aston be any different?