Porsche truth or myth? No.1 Spoiler removal
- Thread starter Greg Park
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Greg
NO rear spoiler is the FUTURE!! Classic clean look is the way forward. My 89 F LHD 3.2 Carrera has no rear spoiler (came from the factory like that) but has the front lip. I have never experienced any handling problems whatsoever. Personally, I think it looks much better without the rear spoiler...nice....
NO rear spoiler is the FUTURE!! Classic clean look is the way forward. My 89 F LHD 3.2 Carrera has no rear spoiler (came from the factory like that) but has the front lip. I have never experienced any handling problems whatsoever. Personally, I think it looks much better without the rear spoiler...nice....
graham tompkins
New member
I read something about this on Rennlist. Their advice was that the problen arises not so much with removal of the rear wing , but with fitting one to an unspoilered car. The downforce generated by the rear wing at speed is considerable and without the front lip as well there could be a tendency for the front to lift or become unstable. The advice was if you fit a wing you have got to also fit a front spoiler. Applying the same logic to removal, I guess it means that if you remove the front you should remove the back, but not necessarily the other way round.
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I became aquinted with the head of Porsche aerodynamic design from the seventies/eighties - Tilman Brodbeck. Tilman headed up the team that designed the original Duck-Tail. I've had many conversations with him, and although he takes the credit, it was no more than a development study to him. He contributed greatly to my book as he now heads up the Porsche AG Excellence division.
Accodring to him, Porsche NEVER supplied a Carrera with either front or rear aerodynamic aids alone - they were either both fitted or both not fitted. He also made it very clear to me that the aids as fitted to the Carrera made a BIG difference to the car in the wind tunnel. As he will tell you, the basic 911 shape produces lift and both front and rear aids reduce lift and add straight line stability at high speed. The chin spoiler also eliminates under body turbulance.
Oliver is correct about the pitching moment into corners, with just the chin spolier fitted - front and rear add adverse oversteer (pitching) and understeer respectively. My book discusses this. You have to also take note of the extensive wind-tunnel testing that the 911 went through - firstly at the Stuttgart University then later at Weissach - again, all that in my book.
It is very easy to disregard good information as a myth, but be careful. I would not remove one or the other - remember the 911 developed as an evolution - the Carrera being the most rationalised version to enter the 'supercar' status the earlier 911s never made. Purists have a good point and I don't disagree with their views on the pure 911 shape, but the engineers at Porsche were asked to stretch the envelope and the only way forward was with aerodynamic aids.
Another good example is the Turbo-Look cars which carried the wings as standard - USA only offered with a 'spoiler delete' option of which we can only find ONE car without spoilers.
As for the Speedster, this was a retro design taken from the 356. But remember, without a roof, the lift will be greatly reduced - I'm sure Tilman put that car through its paces in the wind as well and decided it not necessary to fit wings - the same may be argued about the cabriolet.
Just one final point, I don't think you could buy a Turbo (either 930 or 933) without the spoilers.
Please have a read of my book - I can't cover the subject fully here.
Accodring to him, Porsche NEVER supplied a Carrera with either front or rear aerodynamic aids alone - they were either both fitted or both not fitted. He also made it very clear to me that the aids as fitted to the Carrera made a BIG difference to the car in the wind tunnel. As he will tell you, the basic 911 shape produces lift and both front and rear aids reduce lift and add straight line stability at high speed. The chin spoiler also eliminates under body turbulance.
Oliver is correct about the pitching moment into corners, with just the chin spolier fitted - front and rear add adverse oversteer (pitching) and understeer respectively. My book discusses this. You have to also take note of the extensive wind-tunnel testing that the 911 went through - firstly at the Stuttgart University then later at Weissach - again, all that in my book.
It is very easy to disregard good information as a myth, but be careful. I would not remove one or the other - remember the 911 developed as an evolution - the Carrera being the most rationalised version to enter the 'supercar' status the earlier 911s never made. Purists have a good point and I don't disagree with their views on the pure 911 shape, but the engineers at Porsche were asked to stretch the envelope and the only way forward was with aerodynamic aids.
Another good example is the Turbo-Look cars which carried the wings as standard - USA only offered with a 'spoiler delete' option of which we can only find ONE car without spoilers.
As for the Speedster, this was a retro design taken from the 356. But remember, without a roof, the lift will be greatly reduced - I'm sure Tilman put that car through its paces in the wind as well and decided it not necessary to fit wings - the same may be argued about the cabriolet.
Just one final point, I don't think you could buy a Turbo (either 930 or 933) without the spoilers.
Please have a read of my book - I can't cover the subject fully here.
Tony,
Got the book it's a very good read and contains some really useful information on the 3.2
I understand Porsche put these on for very good reason. Audi suffered a similar problem with the original Audi TT they added the rear spoiler.
I'm just interested to hear from someone who's actually experienced a problem?
Have you heard of anyone in your time as Register Secretary?
As I said I'd had no problems (maybe I haven't been pushing the limits).
Greg
Got the book it's a very good read and contains some really useful information on the 3.2
I understand Porsche put these on for very good reason. Audi suffered a similar problem with the original Audi TT they added the rear spoiler.
I'm just interested to hear from someone who's actually experienced a problem?
Have you heard of anyone in your time as Register Secretary?
As I said I'd had no problems (maybe I haven't been pushing the limits).
Greg
bones
New member
Porsche fitted the spoilers to decrease lift, I guess this is only noticeable at high speeds. I would think removing the rear spoiler and not removing the front might increase oversteer at high speed if anything, where as fitting only the rear spoiler would really upset the apple cart. The first time I drove my SC after adding the 964 'look' parts (not the reason I fitted the parts), the car was a much better handling car , it feels stable and planted, with it's lighter weight it turns better and slides more controllably. I assume the 3.8 wing is making up for lack of real mechanical grip and that's why many of the 70's race 911s had huge rear wings and fibreglass components and aerodynamic aids fitted throughout. It's interesting that todays 997s etc use tiny wings or none because of increased mechanical grip. Whilst I like the look of the de-spoilered 911 too I prefer to drive mine with as much wing as I can reasonably get away with, speaking from experience it transformed my cars high speed behaviour for the better.
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