potential purchase - thoughts welcome

[EddySpaghetti]

Hi All,

I have been haunting the forums for a while but am yet to buy a car. I've looked at several and may have now found one that I'd like to buy. I thought I'd ask for some advice first.

The car is in the photo at the bottom. If you look at the photo the S2 badge is different to all the others I have seen - its not vertically offset. - Since this is a G reg is that the way the badges were at the beginning of the model run?

I had thought perhaps it had suffered a rear end knock, but the sticker in the rear valance is present and the boot floor looks OK - there is a slight (3 mm) misalignment in the bumper on one side - but it is within the tolerance of the panel gaps on these cars (!) Thoughts very welcome.

If the car is straight, and genuine, then I think it has 3 potential major issues:

1. There is a tiny bit of rust on the passenger side sill, this is in three spots:

• One at the front edge, about the size of a 20p piece and in the front bottom corner. Hasn't broken the paint
• Two bubbles (more like gnat bites !) towards the rear (6inches forward of the back end) that have broken the paint, each about 4-5mm across on the bottom edge of the sill where it meets the plastic trim piece.

[blockquote]
The arches on all four corners look really good to me and looking from the inside boot the wells either side are totally spotless - better than on any other car I have looked at, and with the drain pipes attached firmly.[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
I have photos of the rust spots on my phone so could send if anyone is interested, but can't connect my phone to the PC at the moment.[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
I have read that the sills are most likely to rust from the inside out, so worst case this means replacing the sill on that side. Am I right in thinking that could be a grands worth of work if it reveals nastiness inside the sill?[/blockquote]

2. The other potential issue is that the steering wheel was vibrating on the test drive at some speeds.
[blockquote]
This could be a balance job on the wheels, but does it have any other nasty potential causes? - There was no wobble I could feeel on braking, through the steering wheel or the pedal so I think the discs are straight.[/blockquote]

3. One further concern that could be expensive - the drive shafts have no perceptible 'side to side' wobble, but the axial movement seems very large - end float of about 1-2 cm! - Is that normal?

Smaller niggles:

The passenger window doesn't work and the sunroof will extend, but the guides wont retract to let me take it out. How much could it cost to fix the window if its a burnt out motor? - I'm happy to do the labour myself but wonder how expensive the parts are liely to be.

Apart from the above the car appears to be in good nick. I couldn't find any evidence of oil leaks, and the paint, wheels and interior are in great shape. It looks like there are a few new pipes / fresh jubilee clips etc. in the engine bay, and new HT leads which points to good maintenance and there is a receipt for recent brake work including the brake lines. There isn't a great service history of invoices, but the logbook has plenty of stamps and there are a bunch of old MOTs. The car also has Porsche Club GB and 944 owners stickers on it.

So apart from the above my other concern is that the car has only done 4k miles in the last 4 years, and I think it is well overdue a belt service (last done 20k ago, but 5/6 years back). What are the likely issues if the car hasn't been used too much?

I think 4k is a good price for a mint S2 in the current market, without the issues above, so I'm planning to haggle down from that figure on the basis of cost for an urgent belt service, rust repair to sill and the window mechanism.

If the steering wheel shimmy is just wheel balance then the garage outght to be able to fix that and give me another test drive to prove its nothing more serious.

Any and all thoughts welcome - could this be 'the one'??

Cheers,

Eddy

 

[edh]

that's a much better idea Scotty - Big Dave's old car - probably a bit quicker than your average S2 & will have been well looked after.

 

[James_G]

Ed

As you know you came to see my car late last year. Based on what we discussed at the time, I think you should walk away from this car for a number of reasons, not least the fact that the steering wobble is unknown. Afterall if it were an easy fix, you'd think the current owner would have got it sorted. It could be lower arms, or wheels that aren't circular anymore. Belts is of course another issue, and I wouldn't touch a car with rust bubbles on the outer cill as it'll mean the inner ones are terminal (rusty lower arches are different - mine are being done very shortly and for not too much ££)

There are good ones out there, you just have to think nationally.

 

[zcacogp]

I'm going to stick my neck out here. It depends upon what you want to do with the car. If you have a large budget, and want a showroom piece, it sounds like it isn't for you. As it is, it looks very similar to my S2 (it's a year newer, but otherwise similar - even the same colour outside and in), and my S2 is just what I want.

Cills - take the vents off the back of the door shut apertures and have a good look in there - even better, dangle a digi camera in there and take some good photos. Mine proved to be fine (nearly as new), despite the tiny bubble on the outside. (OK, smaller than a 20p piece, but still there.) The ones on G615GJT may be rusting to glory on the inside, but you can't tell - have a look as described.

Belts, rollers and a waterpump won't be £1300. If they are, you're going to the wrong place. I had mine done for £700 two years ago by an indie. And that was using genuine parts, as he refused to use anything else. (Yes, there was around £200 difference in the price of original parts compared with OE parts.) OK, this didn't include the waterpump, but it did include having a rear wheel bearing replaced and an investigation of a squeak in the rear suspension. Get a quote from your local indie, but if it's more than £600 I'll be very surprised.

Steering wheel and wobble - tricky one. But I'll bet it is wheel balance. There isn't a lot at the front of a 944 to go wrong as there is no drive there, and wheels do go out of balance. Why not ask the seller to come with you to a wheel and tyre balancing place (of your choosing) and ask them to check the front wheels? If they are out, and a rebalance cures the problem, everyone is happy and you can think about buying the car. (If it's something that is more sinister, and can't be cured with a balance, then think again.)

If you refer to the drive shafts to the wheels (and I can't think of any others!) then a good couple of cm end float is quite normal, due to the way that the CV joints work. Any lash is a bad thing, but end float such as you describe is very normal (and has to be, to allow the suspension to work.) I'm impressed you checked the car this closely ...

In short, don't write it off. Any second-hand car is a bit of a lottery - that's true, and you can load the odds in your favour by picking a good one, but this doesn't sound like a disaster at all. Cills potentially in good order, belts needing doing but known about and can be used as a bargaining point, good wheelarches, lots of history (how much of it is decent?) and it drives well ... sounds like a very good one to consider seriously.

Have you considered a PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection) at an indie?


Oli.

 

[zcacogp]

Scotty,

I paid around £700 for belts x 2, all the rollers, rear wheel bearing, investigate squeak and all labour. Knock off the cost (parts and labour) of the wheel bearing, and half-an-hour for the squeak investigation, and add around £300 for the water pump. OK, £600 is a bit low, maybe nearer £800.

It sounds like you are talking about a rather bigger job - cam chain and tensioner and oil seals will all push the price up a bit. But would this be another £500?

OK, factor in that my prices are a little out of date (2 years or so), but £1300 still looks high.

Put it another way. The belt and rollers kit is priced at just over £200 at Promax (not sure whether this is inc. or excl. VAT). Fitting them may be a couple of hours, so another couple of hundred quid (at £100/hr, which is a VERY high rate). Total £400. Water pumps seem to be a little short of £300 inc. VAT, but even adding this price gives £700.

I'm not having a dig, but a belt service (which is what was asked about) is not £1300! []


Oli.

 

[Diver944]

I think this 'could' be a contender Eddy

The main thing to double check is the inside of the sills by taking a picture through the vent in the door pillar. If they are rusted to buggery then budget over a £1000. If they are not then you will have a few more years grace. Visible signs of minor rust does mean it is in there, but these cars do rust slowly and regular cavity wax like Dinitrol, Waxoyl and Bilt Hamber will slow it down. Touch up the outside at the same time

I would stick my neck out and say wheel wobble is weights too.

The belts and water pump are a service item that need to be done regularly and I wouldn't walk away from a car just because they are due now. I don't know where you are in the country but a quick check of the menu at www.jmgarage.com shows that belts are currently £275. Rollers will be around an extra £100 and waterpumps are around £300

Other well respected 944 Indies are Hartech in the Northwest, Promax in the Midlands and RPM just north of Herts and their prices will be in a similar ballpark

 

[EddySpaghetti]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

I will definitely follow the advice to photo the inside of the sills - I looked at the ones on an earlier post so I think I have something to compare against. - that's the beauty of the forum.

If I get the garage to check the wheel balance while I'm there is there an easy visual check that I can do for plate lift on the calipers while the wheels are off the car? - Can you check for this without trying to get new pads in and finding they don't fit?

I think the comments so far have addressed the main things I was worried about but it would still be great if someone has an idea on the cost/difficulty of repairing a window / sunroof, since I think those are good bargaining points.

Also, what sort of things may have gone wrong if the car has done 4k in 4 years - For example I was worried the stereing wobble might be tires with flat spots - which is another largeish bill immediately after purchase.

I'm based in London and car is close to my Mum's in Scotland - I would like to do the belt service before driving 450 miles south, so anyone know a good indy in the Perth / Stirling / Edinburgh area? - May also gtet a PPI.

Thanks again!

Eddy

 

[zcacogp]

Eddy,

Window could be a number of things, but if (worst case scenario) it's the motor, keep an eye out on eBay. I am sure they won't cost much. I'd think the more likely problem is a blown fuse or duff wiring.

Sunroof is probably a badly-adjusted microswitch. Fiddly pain-in-the-RS fix, but not difficult. Worst thing with sunroofs is that the gears strip, and they are about £3 each. It takes two of them.

Sills and wheel wobble are the make-or-break with this one I think. And a PPI for peace of mind I suspect.

In London? Whereabouts? I'm in the East End. We had a hands-on session recently with a couple of other chaps on here, where we met up for a Saturday and did some DIY jobs on a variety of 944's. James_G and I are thinking of having another one sometime soon ... it could be a great time to look at iffy windows and sunrooves and whatnot ...


Oli.

 

[u63af]

Eddy,
I am friends with Niki Dickson who owns the garage that is selling that car. One of his mechanics has had 944s in the past and they have worked on my old TVR, 944 S2 and Turbo before. I have spoken with him today and he has said that they are going to inspect the belts and tensioners. I am sure that if it does need done that he would be very reasonable on labour and parts of anything needing done. At the end of the day, he is a main dealer and cannot put out a car with problems.

 

[Indi9xx]

I would go for it Eddy,

The belts need doing every 4 years, so they would have needed doing sooner or later on any car you buy and the chances of finding one which has just had it all done is slim.

In defence of the member who said account for the belt job costing up to £1200, I can see where he is comming from.

The belt job on a S2 can turn into an epic..

If it needs a water pump, it may as well have a thermostat, may suffer from needing all new studs, may have broken studs needing drilling a helicoiling (not much space either)

Then there can be to front engine oil seals (9 in the front of the s2) oil pump and balance shaft oil seal sleeves, and a whole host of other bits that can be a problem.

We tend to offer a capped price for doing the whole lot so it does not go out of control, otherwise a bill could expand out of control, so I can see where the £1200 can come from. But expect around £300 for a belt job all done.

 

[Big Dave]

ORIGINAL: edh

that's a much better idea Scotty - Big Dave's old car - probably a bit quicker than your average S2 & will have been well looked after.

Yes that is my old car...It was VERY VERY well looked after whilst i had it...
BUT....
I believe it might have deteriorated a bit since...A little birdy tells me....Although i cannot comment from personal experience, as i havnt seen it for 6-7 months...
So make your own judgments...

 

[edh]

That's a shame...Those photos are from when you had it aren't they Dave?

 

[Big Dave]

ORIGINAL: edh

That's a shame...Those photos are from when you had it aren't they Dave?

They sure are....