Random Waffling

[steveoz32]

Another year and I have wondered AGAIN whether it is worth changing the C2.

Given that I still love the look of her, the colour, and still great performance from the lighter narrowbody RWD version I am still wondering if it is worth trading in.

She's 14 years old now and I notice 996.1's are getting cheaper. However, I can see we are at the point now where people will be buying early cheaper examples and there will be quite a few getting run down and not being maintained. I've seen lots for sale cheap with faults, and 'due to change in circumstance' or 'unable to afford to run' etc. Over time the cheaper they are, the more they are likely to fall into hands where they will be bought cheap and not maintained and end up in the scrapheap in the sky.

Over time I can see the 996.1 going the same way as many other cars, as the number of well cared for examples decrease, decent examples will be hard to find and prices will increase (specifically to collectors and or lovers of the first water cooled era, yes there are some lol).

I was contemplating trading in a few weeks back, but a rough guide for PX is around 7-8k against a 20k+ 911 from what I have enquired. I can't get my head around the fact that, if I spend out say 20k on a C4s, only a few years newer, with lower mileage granted, is it REALLY worth nearly three times my car? Or to put it another way, spending out over 14k + a 996 I already love to drive and look at!? Add on top of that the unkown and likely hood of having to replace components I have already been through on my car (and potentially starting over) I'm not sure it's worth while.

I guess it may seem like I have made my mind up from typing this post, but had a few minutes to kill and just wanted others opinions, as, having recently purchased the wife a new motor it got me thinking of changing (you know how it is). The one thing I do regret about my car is buying one when at the time I had a limited budget, as if I had waited a few months I could have got a much lower mileage example for only a couple of K more, still as time goes on and I replace more components does mileage really matter?

Oh but the suspension woes still continue, waiting for my M003 pack now from Porsche which isn't due until end of July (waiting for stock from DE). But I decided it's better than the aftermarket stuff to keep it more original in the end.

When I fit the suspension I would have renewed all brakes, renewed most suspension components, the bodywork is immaculate as is the interior, I've fitted a genuine GT3 PU and had the front resrpayed so it's spotless to, I've replaced many common things that fail and given attention to many small details. She's had a new MAF, new coilpacks, replaced the water pump, drive belt, plugs, driveshaft oil seals, replaced all tyres only a couple of hundred miles ago etc etc. I will be looking at a new clutch soon, although TBH, if I keep her I may just get an engine overhaul and have an IMS upgrade as well as other worthwhile work whilst having it pulled apart.

Anyhow, I would see that for potentially under another 7k (allowing for engine coming apart and upgrades), I could have a pretty much totally sorted, and spotless 996 with every major thing renewed that should last a lifetime. I only use her in the summer really and on nice dry days, the rest of the time she is tucked up in the garage safely away from the elements.

Do you guys think I am being crazy? Or is there a method to my madness?


Cheers!

P.S. hope all your motors are going well

 

[chriscoates81]

I think that below 10k on a part ex seems a bit like a slap I. the face. I can't believe these cars are worth so little. Does the value of what the car is being part ex'd for make a difference as I'd like to trade mine on for a turbo cab in a few years and I'd like to think it would be worth more than 10k to part ex.

 

[steveoz32]

The 'book' prices and CAP prices that some dealers go by is shocking tbh.

That said, my motor is a C2 with over 100k on the clock. I dare say the same motor with perhaps 60k on would receive a better value.

It depends on who you ask, last year just over the phone I was told 10k in against an 18k C4s, the two I called about this year saw the value I was quoted drop by quite a bit, but they were different dealers.

I can't see prices dropping much further though, as mentioned when you start to get the 'cheaper' ones being sold that need work or have not been maintained as well, the decent ones will command a higher price. Have seen this happen in many cars I have owned in the past.

996.1's will be desirable in years to come and fetch good money, but it will take time, perhaps somewhere between another 5-10 years before they are collectible and the junk has been whittled out, it's just a buyers market at the moment with so many being around.

 

[graham.webb]

Steve
You've made an interesting point about neglect and its effect on the remaining cars. Interesting to compare with 944s, admittedly at a lower price point:

I bought my S2 6 years ago and kept all the ads I'd trawled through...price for a decent one appears to be much the same at about £4 - 5k and low mileage garage queens anywhere from £8k upwards. What's changed is that the market "floor" now seems to be cars at sub £2k, and as you say these are the ones that have not been looked after.

Typical owner at this level appears to be someone who will buy a Porsche for less than the price of a hot hatch, then discover the down side of running costs if you're unlucky. Typical advert contains phrases like "good bodywork, no rust" (optimistic) and " no MoT, just a couple of small fixes needed to pass")!!

So I reckon you're right, this gradual atrition should ensure prices of properly looked after cars will hold up...that seems to be the view of the editor of 911 & PW now he's sold his 944!

Your 996 sounds good...can't imagine you'd be looking at those sort of daft prices if you sold privately.

 

[gonzosquidgy]

HI Steve. Think I'm in the same position as you. My 996 C2 Tiptronic is same year as yours with only 80k on the clock.
I've looked at 997's but a lot seem to have had new engines, which to me seems a bit odd as mine is still original (as is the gearbox). I too have spent a lot recently and changed most on the car. All I really need now is a front end respray due to the usual stone chips. Although I like the look of the 997 C4S and the better leather interior, it seems a lot to spend just for that and you don't know what problems you are buying into. I think I may hang on a bit longer and see if I can afford more or the prices reduce (my son is constantly nagging me to change for a Ferrari 360 but they too seem to have very expensive running costs!).
John

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

Normal depreciation is a fact of life with any "modern" Porsche. If you compare the value of your car with a 14 year old Mercedes of similar initial list price, you will see the same situation. I also agree that far too many people buy the highly affordable 996, without realising the running costs of a £70k sports car, running them for a couple of years, and then trading them in when faced with a few big bills. The trouble is that these cars go on for so long with rusty brakes, worn suspension, and leaky aircon, etc, without really affecting how they drive. All looks shiny on the outside, but lots of expenditure is lurking underneath.

I was in a similar situation to you with both my 996's, having spent a lot of money getting them into tip-top condition. It was itchy feet that made me change, heart rules head, and economics go out the window. It happens with most of my car purchases, and I have only regretted it when I made the boring and sensible choice.

 

[gonzosquidgy]

I agree Richard. Only had my 996 a couple of years and getting itchy feet. Mind you, I'm also contemplating a PVC wrap, probably in white with gey wheels. That way, I get a "new" car but with "nowt" to spend. Any thoughts?

 

[thirteeneast]

My 2 pence worth is,

Not worth selling for peanuts and a car is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, And to me mine is worth a lot.
The 996 is a good car.
When they get to 20 years old any good looked after car of the performance and prestige of a 996 is not going to be cheap.
They are ridiculously cheap (now) mainly because of bad internet woes and they were born in a time in which the internet became available for everyone to see and use.
Yeah Porsche cut a few corners with the 996 but who don't now days?.

How many cars would Lotus have sold in years gone by if the Internet had been about (probably none).

 

[steveoz32]

Good points by all, thanks for the input.

There's a lot of good comments here and not just because they are convenient for me in my situation! Graham, 944's are an interesting topic, I too have watched prices on these yo-yo, but the bottom line is as you mention, a nice 944 will command many times what the average price of many others today. Autotrader as a convenient source would have had tens of pages in years gone by, now decent examples are becoming rare.

John, agreed, if you already have a car you love the look, performance and feel of, do you really need to spend so much more to experience much the same that you already have?

Richard, totally agree, my car was very polished and had every receipt since new, it was a bit of a bargain price as you know at the time, however, I feel if it had slipped into the wrong hands when I picked it up, many little things would have gone unnoticed and perhaps had a detrimental effect on the car. Indeed, many of the slight oil leaks and other bits could have still been going on now, lets not forget the running issue it had, it could well have still been sat in someone's garden collecting water!

Thirteen, I believe you are right also. As I suspect, in 5-10 years I just can not see a nice, well cared for and mint 996 not being worth a good price, of course we could be wrong, but, even looking at modest sporting saloons and other models, we don't need to be rocket scientists to spot the common trend. To me though it started to hit home when I heard 7.5kish figures in PX, a shiny new (to me) car sounded promising (and sometimes still does depending on the mood I am in!), but I struggled to justify paying, in essence, three times my car for something that didn't seem, well, three times the car.

Of course, don't get me wrong, IF money wasn't an object it would be less of a concern, I don't want to twist things just to suit my situation, but, I am not a millionaire and simply don't have the ability to burn money. Out laying much more money needs to be justified, even if it is simply for fun and or enjoyment, and the justification is what I have been struggling with (hence the topic).

At this point I am faced with what is the most sound investment and or proposition for sub 20k, true, you rarely win with cars, they all devalue to a point and can rarely be seen as an investment unless you are truly buying an existing 'classic', especially if you buy new or nearly new. But, do I keep a car I love and spend more on it (and less than one only a couple of years newer), or start over and spend out nearly twice as much as I could by having a very sound and sorted 996 plus jump into the unknown.

Overall, the 996 shape for me isn't an issue, neither is performance and colour etc.

Interestingly my wife helped direct me to this opinion, she has images of us pottering around to car shows in it when old and grey (well I feel I am getting that way now!).

An interesting discussion for sure, no doubt I will go to bed and if the sun is shining tomorrow wake up with another opinion on it! But, if I keep the car which is now seeming highly likely, you can probably expect a similar thread again this time next year knowing me

I wonder if I will still be on this forum in 10 years time looking back knowing that I was right, or, that I was an idiot

 

[gazzy]

I also went through the same thought pattern,to sell or not to sell,I've decided,like many others,that if looked after it may start to regain some value in the future.If it doesn't,well I'm still driving a great car and suffering the same deppreciation as any other car,be it good or bad.As for a later 911 my thought's were,without upsetting any 997 owner's,that many still had the same problems as the 996 but at a far higher purchase price and,in my opinion not a lot better car.I also see the 996 as the first watercooled so will have some kudos in the future whereas a 997 is just another 911,a great one but just another 911.The 991,out of my league for about ten years and by that time my,by then,22 year old 996 may be worth more than a ten year old 991.Here's hoping anyway.

 

[912UK]

this makes very interesting reading.. I didn't know the newer 997's still had this engine issue?

 

[philippe]

Very interesting reading. I'm keeping my 98 996 which I have had for 8+ years I will upgrade one day but not for one. 1 I can't afford it 2 for 10k I don't think I'm going to get more fun and owner satisfaction. I also think these things are all relative. If you sell yours in time to come for another 911 then as long as it not a brand new one the % of depreciation is going to be higher, unless you are going for something rare. I was a bit shocked a couple of years back how much the prices of 996s had dropped but then noticed that the same with 997. So Steve enjoy your car keep playing with it and putting your posts on here as they are interesting, and when the time and the right car comes up go for it.

Cheers Phil

 

[steveoz32]

Thanks for the input and positive comments Phil

 

[steveoz32]

Thanks for the input and positive comments Phil

 

[neilm]

I've been having similar thoughts in the face of increasing mileage and the desire for 'something different'

I paid 27k for my 2004 996 C4 2 years ago and was aghast that the 'book' price is down to about 14k trade-in, though I'd expect about 18500 in a private sale.

It has been looked after, to the extent where I've spent over £5000 in the 2 years for all the usual stuff like suspension, condensers, coolant tank, water pump, steering pump, plus usual running repairs like pads, discs and tyres (and a set of wheels thanks to our local council's policy on potholes!). It's now done 85k miles and I drive it over 1k per month.

The next bill is likely to be a clutch, but luckily it has great oil pressure, no leaks and negligible oil consumption, so hopefully the IMS will hold up.

So, my dilemma would be choosing what to get. My head says my current car now has most of the bugbears fixed; buying another car with 40-50k miles may just start the spending process off again, with the attendant uncertainty of ongoing reliability.

I'm feeling more inclined to keep it for another year