RMS Mystery Solved

[Guest]

After extensive research I have put the following facts together which should cure potential & actual 996, boxster & 997 purchasers concerns regarding the infamous RMS issue.

The RMS facts: -

The Chance of experiencing RMS Failure.
996,997 & Boxster owners have an approx. 35% chance of suffering RMS (rear main seal) failure (40% Reenlist poll, 30% PCGB Survey + misc other evidence).

An unlucky 5% of owners will require more than one RMS replacement.


The Symptoms:-

In the vast majority of cases an RMS failure will mean a small but noticeable sweating of oil & possibly a small film of oil will be seen when the car is on the ramps or worst case scenario a few drips will appear on the garage floor.


The potential & actual results of an RMS failure:-

Oil spots on your garage floor.

In theory the clutch could be contaminated with dripping oil although in practise there are no (or very, very, very few) reported cases of this ever happening..

There are no other problems associated with having a failing RMS, it has never, repeat never caused engine failure.


The cause:-

Many, many theories but no actual evidence, I would imagine Porsche's silence on the issue means they don't even know or they would have cured it by now.


The Solution:-

The very rich & very unlucky owner that has a carpeted garage & had an RMS failure outside of warranty can get it replaced for approx £700, $1,000.

The very unlucky owner that does not have a carpeted garage or more money than sense can wait until the clutch needs replacing at which time a new RMS can be installed for the price of the seal (£$ no money)

60% of owners will never experience the problem.

The vast majority of the 40% of owners that have experienced RMS failure have had it replaced under warranty & have never experienced the problem again.

The unlucky 5% that have had multiple RMS failures have had their engines replaced if they live in the USA "for a very small oil leek !", where as Porsche UK seems to think their UK customers are less likely to have carpeted garages & therefore can live with a small oil leek.


I must surely being missing something, the RMS issue very nearly put me off buying a 996 & I am sure it is one of the causes for the depreciation experienced on these cars.
Thank you internet RMS hysteria, you have has saved us second hand Porsche owners a fortune.
[]

 

[Paul Fraser]

Very good, and I suspect fairly near the reality. The problem is there a number of UK based people who have had bad oil leaks, and I'm talking about more than a few drops of oil, and multiple seals replaced. Some of them post here and I suspect you'll be hearing from them.

 

[Rotorhead]

I think that's probably a fair assessment of the situation.

IMO, the RMS issue has been overstated in some quarters and really shouldn't put anyone off buying a 996/987 or 996/997.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

ORIGINAL: poulett

After extensive research

I guess you forgot to talk to the owners whose engines have been replaced after depositing all their contents unexpectedly on the asphalt ...

Take a view (spin) on it if you want, but collecting all the facts is a reasonable expectation of a research project ... [8|]

cheers, Maurice []

Maurice,
I'm taking a leap here - but I don't recall seeing anyones engines depositing all the oil at onece because of a leaking RMS.

There's bound to be some just to prove me wrong [] - but dumping al the contents sounds more of a catastophic failure than the RMS.

 

[Guest]

Hi Maurice,

Have to agree with Mark, How could an RMS failure have lead to an engine depositing all its contents unexpectedly on the asphalt ... ?

A small number of early 996's did suffer problems of engine failure (and I agree, I would not have been happy had it been me), but hey it was a brand new engine in a brand new car, obviously the likelyhood of failure was going to be greater & as I understand was dealt with as it should have been by Porsche.

However has this got anything to do with the RMS issue ?

 

[NicD]

Mo,

are sure wasnt the balance shaft bearings that went, have heard of this on one or two, but nothing to do with RMS

 

[THX911]

Can someone explain why RMS leaks are still present in 997s and 987s, when Porsche already has the solution for fixing it several years prior to 9x7 release; Turbos and GT3s do not suffer from RMS leaks, surely by moving to another generation they should have adopted the 996 GT3 style seals? [>:]

 

[Black80XSA]

Its three weeks since the last RMS thread, so about time it reared its head again.[8|][8|][8|][8|]

The figures of 30 and 40% are distorted for starters - peopl who post on forums have something to say and something to share - most of the time people log on when they have issues.

I agree its not good enough but RMS is not life threatening; more an inconvenience, but still one that Porsche should have owned up to and sorted long ago.

 

[NicD]

Mo,

no, the engine balance shaft. The bearings for this were a little small. They upgraded them MY03 or there abouts.

Kish,

the BT3 and Turbo engines are based on 964/993 bottom end, not 996. Thats why no RMS issue.

I have just dug out the stats for 996 RMS survey taken May last year - overall 18.5% ona sample of 850 replies, so pretty valid statistically







Model_yr
%

1998
20.6%

1999
21.2%

2000
23.8%

2001
29.4%

2002
16.0%

2003
14.3%

2004
5.1%

 

[NicD]

Mo,

just ask Steve at Machtech about intermediate shaft bearings in early 996/986 engines. He will also agree with your point about the crank not being supported well enough, but he didnt mention engine melt downs from this.

and we are talking about a relatively small number. I had no conclusive feedback of full engine failures in the RMS survey.

 

[David Hooper]

I would suggest it is not the RMS causing failures (in mainly earlier engines) having read through the excellent piece in this months 911 & Porsche World mag on how Autofarm are dealing with older water cooled 996/Boxster engines.
Having run older cars for a long time a bit of "leakage" here and there has never really bothered me.
I have been told that a friends 996 has just gone bang and although out of warranty by a long way he has been supplied with an engine at, allegedly, cost. I shall be talking to him tomorrow to find out the details.
I would also suggest the depreciation is caused by the cars being far too expensive in the first place and hitting their true value when they get into the real world of the used car market.
The same depreciation applies to M3's, Z4's, TT's, Jags, Astons etc and they have had bigger issues, widely known in the trade and by knowledgeable owners using forum's, that would affect their value than the odd drip of oil on the garage carpet/floor.
The afore mentioned magazine is well worth the money this month for that article alone plus a review of the much maligned 964 engine.
cheers
DPH

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett
There's bound to be some just to prove me wrong [] - but dumping al the contents sounds more of a catastophic failure than the RMS.

I have heard of the 'dumping of all the contents' before, but in each case this was due to an oil channel end plug popping out.

 

[Black80XSA]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

ORIGINAL: NicD

Mo,

are sure wasnt the balance shaft bearings that went, have heard of this on one or two, but nothing to do with RMS

Balance shaft ?? You don't mean gearbox intermediate shaft, do you ??

Guess we need a Technical Committee ..... []

cheers, Maurice []

Here's one for reference [][][][]

not mine i might add, this one had done 60k miles

 

[topgearuk]

I think the reason it is still happening even to newer cars is Porsche do fully know why and what causes the problem, but what a great way to keep selling extend warranty's, a bit of scare mongering.. You spend all that money on the car then a majority of owners will keep paying £750 to the dealers once they hear about these RMS failures even 20% thats still quite a high risk to take.
So you can justify the cost of the warranty buy saying to yourself well if I buy 1 it will cover that problem and anything else that might go wrong that isn't wear and tear good peace of mind.
My opinion only!!

 

[DavidO]

My opinion only!!

A cynical, yet rather interesting one

 

[David Hooper]

Having got hold of friend with blown 996 it would seem it went bang in a big way on the way to the shops ! 98 S reg with only 40k on it and a very good history. He was very p****d off and could not get his head round the fact that a company of Porsche's engineering excellence spanning decades has a problem with these engines.
He then started ringing around for a replacement, not got any joy off OPC, despite what was mentioned to me initially, except them saying firstly that they know there is a problem. He screamed at Porche UK , after ringing around all the breakers and not being able to find an engine -because they get snapped up very quick- and told them what he thought and what his OPC had said. The OPC then got a b*****g for discussing the issue with him !

It really should not happen to a car at that milage. I was at one of the specialist breakers this week buying new wheels & tyres and have put my mate in touch so hopefully they can sort him. They have told me of a number of newer cars having problems also. It would seem to be a bit more to think about than a few drips of oil on the garage floor.

As for the figures concerned I would suggest that many newer 996 & Boxster owners are not in the PCGB and we are not getting the full story on this problem. How many water cooled engined cars are out there and how many are members of this club ? How many have gone bang ? How long before my 986 Boxster goes ? Do I sell it now and buy another 968 which seem to be unbreakable ?
Will my head explode with so much to think about on a wet Sunday ? Shall I go to the pub ? Yes.

Cheers
DPH