RS + 1 Update

[boydyrs]

OK so you heard the one about a possible sale of RHD Blue RS which was the first RS + 1 from 9M.
Well, I didnt sell so instead did the next best.......................went for a remap!
Thought I would share results for any potential upgrade thoughts.



Wait for it!



350.5 BHP..............317BHP at wheels................321.2lbft Torque(approx 422 Nm)............WoW!!!

To say I am happy is an understatement as remember this is just a little polish port work, cams on Motec with loads of fuel removed as I always felt it was running rich.

Car feels really crisp and pulls like a train.

I know just need to learn how to drive it now.

This is good news for us guys as Colin is getting approx 300 to 325BHP with remap on standard cars.

Hope this is useful

regards
Raymond

 

[Melv]

Kinnell Ray!!

 

[johnny senna]

HO---LEEE---CRAAAP!!

That's a good result. I look forward to sampling it at Oulton.

PS...thanks for the compliments about my steering wheel!!

 

[paul howells]

Ray
Sounds like your engines a good one then,just goes to show what you can get out of a relativly standard engine.
My cup engine that i had,with no mods at all,just a live remap by wayne got 332bhp.
A freind has a 964 with same mods as yours,but no motec,just live remap was 340bhp & 410nm.This was done by colin and wayne i think.
Look forward to seeing it flying around oulton[]
Paul.

 

[Guest]

I don't usually post on the RS forum, but I have to ask you guys if you really believe you are getting 70-80+hp from a remap alone? Bear in mind that the standard RS engine has relatively mild cams, common plenum injection and a somewhat restrictive exhaust. Do you really think you are getting nearly 100hp per litre? Believe it if it makes you feel better but I have to question it. Think of this, a 3.8 RSR race endurance motor from the factory makes 350hp with much wilder cams, 6 throttle injection, race exhaust and it revs to 7500rpm. It also barely idles.

I don't want to rain on your parade - but I guess I just did. Actually, I respect the fact that Colin and Wayne are getting very good horsepower but this is stretching the bounds of the possible.

Sorry,
Richard

 

[SimonExtreme]

Richard

While I know that RR's lie, maybe you aren't aware what is being done. Nobody is claiming 70-80bhp just from a remap alone and from standard cams the most I have seen claimed is 70bhp more (330bhp). The whole point of running Motec is to enable larger injectors to be used. The limit with the standard injectors is about 300bhp at which point you are stuck because you cannot get any more fuel in. With bigger injectors and the Motec remap, there are a few limits caused by inlet and exhaust restrictions which are usually dealt with to enable about 325-330 bhp. That limit is set by the ability of the head and cams to flow enough air. It is at this pointv that the RS+1 comes into play with flowed head and better cams. Good mapping can now get decent idle out of fairly wild cams.

12 years ago ecu technology was a long way behind where it is today and they didn't have the ability to map in the same way we do today. I am more suprised at the lack of power you claim for the 3.8 RSR than I am for the power being achieved by 3.6 litres. In addition, 330 bhp is 91 bhp a litre, not 100!

 

[uktrucks]

Adding a little drizzle to the rain.

1] Dynos never lie they only record any improvement or not as the case may be after mods.
2] Only engine dynos can ever really record flywheel BHP
3] Rolling roads really record tractive effort or Force applied to the road/rollers everything else is reliant on a mathematical equation.
4] Transmission losses can only really be determined by first running an engine on an engine dyno, then installing same engine in a car and running it on a very accurate rolling road. This loss then only equates to that car, that day, the tyre sizes, gear used, diff ratio, tyre pressures, exhaust installed, heat soak etc etc on the day of the run. But a reasonable % of loss can be determined.
5] Dyno Dynamics dynos are reputed to be the most accurate in the worl.
6] Some dyno's [other than DD]have innacuracies in their transmission loss calculations as they use the unloaded "coast down" method to determine such transmission losses. Can be as much as 5% in some cases. So a Theoretical flywheel BHP of 340 could be as low as 323 BHP !!

7] Read this link on different types of dyno and measurements
www.wrc-tech.co.uk/services.htm

The good thing is that every time a car is run, as long as the environment is stable and controlled the tuner demonstrates an improvement the you have gained. The actual numbers are only valuable for Pub talk.

Regards

Allan

 

[Melv]

Can't help but agree Alan!!

Talking with Colin (Belton) on Friday, whilst bhp figures are always interesting, he uses his machine as a tool to test the relative bhp on modifications he has carried out. Hence your last paragraph!

I also learnt (but have always suspected) that a dyno is only accurate at ISA, International Standard Atmosphere, i.e. sea level, 20 degrees C ambient temperature and 1013mb air pressure. So, one can see how these figures could be easily hyped......

Taking these factors in mind, a correction needs to be added to the final results -on Friday with 1012mb and plus 5C, it was .987.

Only 5bhp transmission loss???? I wish!![]

 

[SimonExtreme]

As is rightly pointed out, RR's are only any good for comparison rather than for giving exact flywheel figures. having said that, the dyno dynamics does seem to produce very consistant figures which take into account temperature, pressure etc.

It is also important to note that 2 different operators on the same dyno can get different results.

And Mel, I don't think that anybody has suggested 5% transmition losses. Allan suggests that the figure could be wrong by up to 5%!

However, the claims that Colin makes are based on the same RR with the same operator and compare before and after. Colin seems to be a very good engineer and I doubt that the "at the wheel" improvements are very far from what he claims.

 

[uktrucks]

Simon is reading my post correctly in that 5% is the potential innacuracy of a Sun / Maha dyno due to the way it measures driveline losses.

I would estimate a Porsche 964RS at around 20% driveline losses due to tyre size, LSD etc so the reported 317 BHP could equal 301 or so ATW a good healthy figure. My own car made around 265 ATW on a Sun / Maha dyno so after correction this could also be only 252BHP ATW
So the Blue car has c50 BHP at the wheels [ATW] more than my car if the results are compared.

This is a significant gain on any naturally aspirated car. My car is not std it has Hot Film Conversion + Chip, Cup Pipe, De-Cat but is definately rich as the chip installer in 1995 bonded the chip to the pcb to avoid it coming loose, so we have been unable to re-map it so far.

As a comparison my GT3 on a Dyno Dynamics day indicated 284 BHP ATW which was extrapolated to 349 BHP Flywheel, others recorded 300 BHP ATW on the day. My car's poor result was put down the adaptive ECU and the fact that I drove it slowly and the other GT3 Mk1 had been caned.

So to finish this ramble off any 964RS that can achieve the same sort of ATW BHP as a Mk1 GT3 is definately fit and healthy. The older car does not benefit from the watercooling, individual coils etc etc

But they are just numbers.......

Allan

 

[Melv]

Sorry Allan, Simon, I must RTFM!!!!

(It was only 10.15a.m......)

 

[paul howells]

Just like to add a little something here.

No body has said about 70bhp from just a remap ,the 964rs i was referring to had slightly hire lift cams and ported heads, but on a standard ecu ,which was then remapped. This gain is relatively simple to get out of a 964 rs ,as the plenum is perfect for the job, better than any vario ram .The exhausts on a 964 are not restricted, but if they were a little smaller ,you would probably get even more power and torque .By putting the 993 turbo injectors in ,you get a better fuel supply, but you can also increase the fuel supply pressure, on lower bhp cars, and this may save the cost of new injectors.

The 993 cup car has the same plenum as the 964 rs/cup ,smaller exhausts etc .But via a live remap ,we increased the bhp ,before /after by 23bhp.The 993cup has wilder cams ,but ticks over like a watch ,and very drivable .Before was 310 bhp ,after was 333bhp.But its not fair to compare a cup engine with standard engines really.

Then you put motec on ,you can tune the car to your plenum or throttle bodies ,cams ,and exhaust size etc.By then fitting 993turbo injectors ,of which i had to do ,because with the mods on my engine ,we found the duty cycle of the 993 rs injectors were basically open all the time ! to get the desired power .By using the turbo injectors you can time the fuelling better and more accurately ,which is key.

We have got nearly 400 bhp ,which is more than 100bhp per litre ,but its expensive & time consuming/frustrating at times development. My 993 rs engine ,we powered tested it last September. It was producing 360 bhp ,and then discovered that one exhaust valve had seized in the valve guide ,so we were actually down by one cylinder !The valve/ guide may have something to do with revving it to 8,000rpm and dumping the clutch regularly at 5 to 6 k rpm.This is of course a modified engine.
The manners of the engine, with wild rsr cams ,is fantastic with motec.I can start it from outside the car ,not touching the peddles ,from cold and it will start straight away, tick over until it runs out of fuel. It revs up and down like a motor bike engine ,but can go shopping in it ,or drive to the ring.
The best part of all this engine, is when its my car which weighs in at around 1130kgs,and give some stick!!
Happy Motoring[]

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: paul howells

My cup engine that i had,with no mods at all,just a live remap by wayne got 332bhp.
A freind has a 964 with same mods as yours,but no motec,just live remap was 340bhp & 410nm.This was done by colin and wayne i think.

This is why I thought 70-80 hp from a remap alone was being claimed - if its not, then the post is a little misleading. Even assuming a Cup engine is extra healthy to start with (ie., better than an RS which is assumed in turn to be better than a C2) and starts with say 270hp. You are still claiming 50+hp from a remap....

Raymond also quotes "300 to 325hp with remap on standard cars". So thats 40-65hp from a remap. OK, I overstated with 70-80hp, but I think you all got the pont.

Still, I am more than happy to learn[].

If, as seems to be the case, you are all happy to use the dyno figures to show the magnitude of before and after improvements, rather than absolute gospel hp figures, then I guess you are on the right track.

At the end of the day, as long as you are all happy with the results of your hard spent £££, then all is well.

Cheers,
Richard

 

[johnny senna]

ORIGINAL: Richard Bernau



If, as seems to be the case, you are all happy to use the dyno figures to show the magnitude of before and after improvements, rather than absolute gospel hp figures, then I guess you are on the right track.

Cheers,
Richard

I think this is what most of us think. It's the before and after numbers using the same rollling road in similar conditions that actually means something.

 

[RSR]

I for one am extremely nervous of dyno figures depending on the circumstances on which you get them. I'm currently trying to resolve a problem with an engine builder who rebuilt a 993 RS engine after it broke. The car had a power graph before it broke from a well known tuner in Germany claiming 330bhp. The guy in the Uk who built the engine obviously knew this would be his customers bench mark following the rebuild and heh presto the car does indeed come with a dyno plot from said engine builder with 334 bhp.

Anyway after I drove the car it's obviously not making anywhere near that figure as it's totally flat, so I take it to someone I know and trust. The car makes 261bhp!?@#*. Engine builder assures me it makes the power so I watch in disbelief as it makes another 335 bhp on his dyno right in front of me, 3 times in a row. The car has since been to other dyno's and made consistantly between 260 and 270 bhp, far short of this other dyno.

Regardless of makes of dyno I don't see how you can get such a wide variation in figures?! Anyone?

 

[johnny senna]

Crikey......that's a bit worrying.

I know the car you are referring to. It sounds like we are dealing with a very optimistic dyno here.

I bought my car with a dyno plot claiming 340 BHP. Having driven it, I know it wasn't producing that. My car is a 993 RS with RS tununing parts like cams/throttle bodies etc. I visited the same trusted engine builder as you and, stone the crows, the engine was only producing 290 BHP. Some hard work and expert re-mapping and my engine now makes 348 BHP on the same dyno.

I'm going to put these graphs on a post soon and get Colin at 9M to comment on them.

 

[paul howells]

Hi
sorry if it was misleading as most people on here new i had a 993 super cup.
The rolling road that you mention Paul, is used by the club to varify that no one is over power for our champs!
They should all be around 5% of each other really ,and would agree that the only controlled way is by a bench dyno ,where you can set up fuel ,temp ,pressures etc etc
This is what Judd do ,but at a cost that most would not live with ,and a rolling road if operated properly will give you your gains .You should always do a power run before and after.
I play with my motec all the time for atmospherics, and make the most power out of the day when i am competing, as the parameters on motec seem to be up and down on self adjust. You can see and feel the difference on a cool or hot day with the motec graphs and manifold pressure.
If you power test you car in winter and summer you will see a discrepancy on the same road, which is normally down to atmospherics, but not massively .The power test you are talking about rsr worries me! As I have seen the engine in bits.

 

[ClubSport 911]

Regardless of makes of dyno I don't see how you can get such a wide variation in figures?! Anyone?

Easy

I used to run a business whose sole aim was to design, and install the equipment used on engine dyno's for automotive manufacturers. I have yet to see a RR dyno at ANY of the so called "expert" tuners that would meet exacting standards used on professional engine dyno's. Next time you are at your favourite RR, ask them to provide you with a copy of the most calibration test.

The big issue's are:-

Torque linearity with speed
Effect of temperature.
Compensation.
Braking accuracy .
Dynamic load response.
Torque measurement.
Data capture technology (polling speed)

All the one's I have seen are using dated technology, (even those designed in the southern hemisphere) where thermal gain has a dramatic effect on the actual load.

Blah blah blah...

So..best thing you can do, is ignore the actual, but pay attention to the difference you get from your tuning efforts.

Need to know more ? then go to this exhibition in June, and become a real expert !

 

[johnny senna]

ORIGINAL: ClubSport 911


So..best thing you can do, is ignore the actual, but pay attention to the difference you get from your tuning efforts.

Just like I said!!

 

[SimonExtreme]

RSR

I have been through your type of problem with other makes of car and there is a way of resolving it. You need a car that is either totally standard or one where the engine has been on a dyno (recently). Then you can run comparison tests. Ignore the "estimated" flywheel power and just concentrate on the ATW power and the torque. This will give you a good comparison. I guess the only issue with the "standard" car is that there seems to be a difference between a good standard car and an average one.

In addition, it should be done on a "neutral" RR. The operator can make a difference depending on how the vehicle is tied down, how the power is applied, whether you get slip on the rollers etc. In terms of consistancy, I would go to somebody with a Dyno Dynamics RR. The Evo scene does lots of RR days and there is no doubt that a Dyno Dynamics RR gives the best consistancy, both on a single day and over time.

Hope that helps. What scares me about your story is that I am about to spend a fair amount of money to take my power up to about 325-330bhp and am having problems trying to decide who to get to do it. Now I am even more worried!