Running a 964

[W3LSH]

Firstly hello all

I'm currently driving a supercharged mk2 golf

The golf has gone through many changes since I've had it, such as smoothing & paint, engine conversion, trim and so on... I'm now at the stage wondering if I should keep putting more money into the golf, or if I should satisfy the temptation I keep having of moving on to a Porsche 964 which brings me here seeking advice (hope you don't mind!)

What are the 964's like in terms of reliability? Would good maintenance keep them sweet or are they prone to problems/breaking down?

What are general running and maintaining costs like?

I've seen a few adverts mentioning engine rebuilds. How often do they need doing and again is there a rough price guide on this?

Any things to look out for or general advice on owning a 964 would greatly be appreciated

[]

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Richard,

Welcome to the 964 forum first of all. Your Golf looks like it represents a good chunk of money - you seem to have fettled it well, with Porsche teledials if I'm not mistaken!!

The 964 is - in my wholly unbiased opinion (!!) - a great car and one which you can expect absolute reliability. They are well known fro dropping the odd bit of oil - bear in mind that there are 11.5 litres of the stuff flowing around so there are plenty of places it can drip from. There are some you will come across who will profress to be dry - and I won't deny that some are - but most will weep a little.

Given that the engine has a fairly high compression ratio, that together with the fact that it runs dual spark plugs - means that the temperatures in the top end can get pretty ferocious and the ceramic lined exhaust ports bear the brunt. Valve guides can wear, valve seats get worn and valve springs get tired. Most cars on the sales forecourt with over 80,000 miles on the clock will benefit from having the security of a top end rebuild and justify a higher price because of it. Whether they NEEDED the rebuild is an entirely different question. I have heard of examples exceeding 200,000 miles without a rebuild.

The only real justification for a rebuild is a lack of compression - full stop. Oil leaks are a nice fix while it's being done - but it's not the reason you do it. You're looking at anything from £3500 to £6000 for a decent rebuild. Even more if other things get you "while you're in there".

The bottom end of the engine is pretty bomb proof although you will come across instances where main bearings have failed but this has often turned out to be the repercussions of a poor prior rebuild.

Servicing is not cheap with items such as tappet adjustment being particularly labour intensive - but that's only once in 24,000 miles. Bear in mind that you're going to be paying £100+ just for the oil!! Generally it's reckoned to cost £1000-£1500 a year for maintenance but it will obviously depend on how you use the car.

There are very few 964 owners that I know who would question their car's ability to drive to the South of France. No question. One friend of mine has picked up completely unknown 964s in this country and driven them to Luxembourg non-stop and never had a problem. If it's reliability you want you won't go far wrong.

However, if you want cheap motoring you might have to think again. It's not the maintenance that will get you - it's the slippery slope of the "enhancements". I can see from the pictures of the Golf that you've got THAT bug already so you're well on the way.

The 964 is the last of the classic 911 shaped cars with the advantages of many modern features such as ABS, independent suspension, power steering - and SUCH a personality!! Get one - you'll never regret it!!

Regards

Dave

 

[Dean Peach]

I agree, I must admit that mines only used in the sunshine as I have an Audi Quattro for daily use but I can't help havening a big smile on my face and seeing my 964 amongst my toys. You'll never regret it and I can't see you losing money on it..

 

[W3LSH]

Thank you both for the replies

Good spotting Dave they are indeed teledials - mirror polished not that the above pics shows that too well. Some very interesting things there to consider so thanks again for that info. Your totally right about having 'that' bug too... Its either more to the golf or wait for a bit and start it all over again with a 964 []

Cheers Dean. It will be a similar story with me. The Golf gets used when its dry or suits, the works car soaks up the rest of it

 

[Jon Kent]

Yup, I agree with Dave.....get a 964.
I've run them as daily drivers for 5.5years now and yup, I'm the bloke that's re-patriated several cars to the mainland. Easy to maintain for a car enthusiast and possible for someone who's not. The list of mods is endless, but some have dramatic impacts on the performance and sound of that lovely flat six. Handling is easily optimised and brakes are pretty amazing as standard.....but easily improved.
Don't be put off by the stories that a C4 is a worse prospect than a C2. Either car set up correctly is amazing.
If anyone says otherwise, ask them if they've owned or even driven a C4 ! I'm on my 3rd and have had 2 C2s also. I'd happily have another C2 tomorrow, but the C4 is the best for the all seasons all reasons solution.
Winter tyres going on soon and she'll blast me all the way through another winter......great car.
BTW, my first 964 replaced a rather nice Corrado VR6, so I kind of know where you're coming from.
Good luck,

Jon

 

[W3LSH]

Jon - thats a lovely 964 in your attachment. Is that yours?

Novice question here, what are the differences between the C4 and C2? Apart from RWD and AWD?

Thanks again for the advice

 

[Jon Kent]

Yes, that's Amy (Back to Black).......
Unfortunately the RUF 18" Speedline don't really fit on the narrow body so I'm on CUP2s at the moment.
I bought her in June this year for a great price, as she's mechanically superb having full brakes and suspension in 2007. Paintwise, she's rough in areas, but we can fix that in time.
C4 & C2 ? Long story, but the C2 is a very surefooted machine and most owners will say C4s are crap as they weigh more (+100kg) and understeer. 0-60 times are equal in the dry, with the C4 much faster in the wet. C2 can take you into the greenery on slippy bends, the C4 will tell you when it's on the edge with slight understeer, easily corrected with a little accelerating. With winter tyres, in the snow, the C4 is superb. In rain you can drive like it's dry. Brakes are a little better on a C4 as it's a pressurised system and the earlier cars had bigger rear calipers. Amy has already done about 15 laps of the "ring" and outperformed a 993C2 on a French trackday. Same on the track as when it's wet, when she understeers on sharp bends, the right foot brings her back round. If it's for dry weather only, a C2 is a must, but a good C4 should not be dismissed, as for 'normal' driving, you won't notice the difference.
Keep in touch with the forums (especially with Dave W.) and you'll get all the help you need to find the right car.
Also try [FONT=tms rmn"]
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/porsche964/
Best Rs,
Jon

 

[Alexander_Drobik]

I echo what Jon says. On a dry track a C4 will be 2-4 seconds slower, on a wet one maybe 20 seconds faster unless the other driver is a real hot shoe in which case the gap is less.

One thing to remember, the understeer on a C4 is worse but can be almost dialed out, and can be a benefit if you trail brake (track only pls). If you trail brake you keep the awd from coming on and that counters the awd tendency to go straight. Once you have rotated the car, hit the accelerator and the C4 blasts out faster now with the awd working in your favour.

I think for everyday road use a C4 is best. If you want a purer experience for sunny days get a C2. OK I have a C4 but that is what I really think!

 

[W3LSH]

Lovely Jon - really like it. It would be a black 964 that I would be after

Its sounds like the C2 would be more ideal for me. At the moment it would be used in the dry and so on, and even if circumstances changed it would only be driven hard in dry conditions.

I know it must be awkward to compare, but how would you say the C2 compares to the modern cars performance wise?

 

[Jon Kent]

Hi Richard,

They compare very well with a modern performance car, as we're talking about a 1990s Supercar IMO. With 250bhp as standard, and a sub 6sec 0-60 time, there's not much on a normal drive that will beat it.
Though it's a different life in a 964 because you know it's ability, so does everyone else, so there's no real need to 'prove' it. Best save the 'races' for the track, where a 964 can really be exploited....then driven home in comfort.
Drive a C2 and a C4 before you decide. If you find a car with some tastefully executed mods, even better. I know where there's a 1990 Black metallic C2 with RUF tuning, but I'm SURE the owner won't sell. He knows how good it is[].
Best of luck,
Jon
P.S. Another Ring pic......this was a really good Friday Afternoon visit last month.

 

[W3LSH]

Hi Jon

I agree with what your saying about the track, I was just curious of where it 'stands' and poss to see how it would differ to my golf.

Funnily enough the local club I'm with were at the 'ring when I created this post - I also came across that pic of yours (and a few more) in the 964 yahoo group. I want one []

 

[Jon Kent]

It's a different game to the Golf, even a gorgeously customised one like yours (Well done, by the way).
Everything about the 964 is wonderful, from the looks, the sound, the feel, handling and acceleration.
After over 5.5yrs, I can't imagine not owning one.
I've tried (and owned) other P cars but none deliver the same complete package like the 964.
I still have lots to learn, but know enough to know good from bad.
The price difference from good to bad is half what it will take you to improve a bad one.
I generally spend 1-2000euros on and 'new to me' 964 to get it to my standard mechanically, even when it is described as 'needing nothing'.
Get someone who knows 964s to assist you in the buying (or a Pre-Purchase Inspection). Make a list of all jobs that need doing.....add 25-50% to this amount, then try and get this off the asking price. The owner generally knows what things cost, so will usually allow most or all of this amount off the car.
If you can cope with LHD then it's worthwhile as they're currently more valuable on the continent, good news, should you want to sell. Read Buyers guides and learn the models & factory mods by model year (as a rule 1991MY onwards cars leak less oil as they have a cylinder head gasket - in reality they all 'sweat' oil, some more than others!). 1992-1993 cars are thought to be the best proposition with all the improvements for issues found on the earlier cars. Don't discard any earlier MY car, just because of the stats. My 1990 car is almost dry at 145Kkms.
Hope this helps.
Jon
P.S. My first 964 attached.....I miss her.[8|]

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: W3LSH

Lovely Jon - really like it. It would be a black 964 that I would be after

Its sounds like the C2 would be more ideal for me. At the moment it would be used in the dry and so on, and even if circumstances changed it would only be driven hard in dry conditions.

I know it must be awkward to compare, but how would you say the C2 compares to the modern cars performance wise?

With a bit of fettling and weight loss you will see 0-62 mph times of close to 5 seconds (I think the official time of a standard car is 5.5). I've shown a clean pair of heels to a number of elises and the like on trackdays. The C2 in the dry has tremendous grip and very predictable handling. In fact it's when you are going fast that they come into their own (they're a bit agricultural below 50 mph). The C2 also goes pretty welll in the wet:

 

[W3LSH]

Thank you both

The advice is much appreciated and I'm taking it all in

 

[vitesse]

Richard,
Just had a 24k service yesterday on our "K" reg 964C2 at 102,450 miles-I have to admit to not having had it serviced for 3.5 yrs or17,500 miles but have recently refurbished all the brake calipers to cure wear plate lift,skimmed the front discs,fitted new brakepipes & handbrake shoes.I have always used Mobil 1 from Costco-0-40 SAE of which it has, used around 5l in that time.Have also fitted a new oiltank breather pipe whilst I was doing thatside rear caliper.In that period,I have thrown it round the TT circuit on a dawn raid with PCGB,attended a track day at Donnington(learner style but still some hammer) ,up & back from Inverness over a weekend(28.5 mpg) the rest of the time,it has acted as one of my wifes 2 Porsche daily drivers.
I do keep a close eye on everything.The bill for the service at Unit11,Warrington-£296.68 inc VAT plus I supplied the oil& a porsche service kit-approx £65 + £75 extra-not bad for 3 yrs use.
John at Unit 11 says "for a 102k car it goes fast & there is not much wrong with it."
However,the flange on the Heat exchanger section of the exhaust system is on its way out as are the brackets for the heat shield,so that has been left off,and I have agreed to purchase a secondhand section off a customer of John's for way under half price.This will be fitted next service,which is at least 2 yrs away.(a bird in the hand etc).I also need to fit new bushes to the front wishbones at some future opportunity.
So my experience is not mind boggling at all--probably around £2250 over our 7.5 yrs of ownership.
Cheers,
Colin.
PS However ,I have kept it pretty standard unlike Steve![]

 

[jr2015]

Hi Richard. nice Golf! No-one has mentioned Adrian Streather`s book ,"Aufstragnummer 964, an Enthusiasts Companion", its a crash course in the 964, especially in regards to what to look for when buying one,and maintainance once you`ve bought it. I`ve been looking for a year or more and it`s caused me to walk away from all the cars I`ve seen so far , which were cosmetically acceptable but had less obvious problems that the owners were hoping no-one would spot, like being " mistaken" about the year of manufacture, non- functioning systems,which are expensive fixes, clutches and dampers on their last legs etc etc. It`s worth every penny, and the author is on the 964 rennlist forum so you can ask him questions.
Question to the old hands contributing to this thread: Has anyone used the suspension setup mentioned in AS`s book? (can`t quote figures as I don`t have the book to hand)
jr.

 

[NeilW]

ORIGINAL: VITESSE
Just had a 24k service yesterday on our "K" reg 964C2 at 102,450 miles............The bill for the service at Unit11,Warrington-£296.68 inc VAT plus I supplied the oil& a porsche service kit-approx £65 + £75 extra-not bad for 3 yrs use.

Did that include tappet adjustment? The reason that I ask is that mine recently went through a 24K service at a cost of £705, that's no extras just the service. Tom (Ferguson) reckoned on 10 hours labour alone for a 964.

Apparently all of my tappets were too tight and needed adjustment.

 

[Andrew M Bonner]

Richard,

As others who have posted back to you will testify to, (David W), I have recently picked up a '64 and can thoroughly recommend the experience. It's not my first Porsche but is the mark/model & car I have been looking for a 'while'.

My advise is suck in cheeks, dust off your wallet and be prepared to make a few sacrifices if necessary....but then go for it, I would be very surprised if you ended up regretting it; and any way who wants to be the richest man in the cemetary? [] Good luck..

Regards

 

[nathan 1981 930 G50]

http://www.hartech.org/docs/Prices_Jan_2007.pdf

Valve clearance services tend to cost £600+

They have to be done cold so you will have to leave the car there overnight unless you trailer it!

 

[W3LSH]

Thanks again for the replies

I've been keeping on an eye piston heads, autotrader etc for a while now, although being honest i'm not quite ready (although shouldn't be long either)

Really fancying the same sort of colour scheme as my golf (pref black or a dark colour with a light colour leather interior)