i am thinking of buying a 2.7 911 (dont know year yet still on foreign plates but probably early eighties) the car is straight and it will be a project, can't stand to see it scrapped or broken. however one thing that is putting me off is when the ns door is opened there is a large amount of rust coming through from the back of the b pillar. i understand that this is the "kidney bowl" rusting through. my questions are how bad is this or more accurately how expensive???? and how much is likely to need replacing? and are the panels available? a very good friend of mine is a welder but i would like to keep him as a friend! so i need to know how bad it could be,difficult question i know but is this the end or can it be saved?? by the way it is very cheap
rust "kidney bowls"
- Thread starter electricracer
- Start date
Bertroex
New member
Hello electricracer,
ALARM BELLS ringing hard but let's not panic. Firstly: there is no such thing as a cheap porsche; the only way you can keep costs down is a) if you do a lot of the work yourself, b) you can get spare parts at discounted/ trade prices or, c) buy the best vehicle you can afford.
Secondly, in order to determine the value, let's be precise about what car we are talking here. A 2.7 litre 911 was produced from september 1973 with 150 bhp (911) 175 bhp (911S) and 210bhp( 2.7 carrera). In september 1975 the model range was revised with 165bhp (911) and a 3 litre 200 bhp (carrera 3.0).
A big revision came through in september 1977 whereby all normally aspirated 911's had 3 litre engines with 180 bhp, from 1980 onward 188 bhp and in 1981 204 bhp. This model range is called the "SC" which ran until the 3.2 carrera was introduced in september 1983.
The rule of thumb is that you take the market price of a very good vehicle and subtract the cost of what it would cost to restore your car to that standard. Often this will be a disappointing exercise. If it is still worthwhile for you (journey more interesting than the goal etc), by all means we will give you all the support you will need but once again, it might just be cheaper and more enjoyable to buy a relatively sorted driver with a valid MOT and improve it as you go along.
Thirdly, rust is a killer.From september 1975 all 911 were galvanised (early coupe's roof excepted) but the early impact bumpered cars had quite basic corrosion protection. If the B-pillars are rusted through then it might be likely that a whole host of rust nests are hidden out of sight. Please do take a knowledgeble porsche person with you as within 10 minutes it can be determined how bad the situation is. I am thinking:
rust under headlamp bowls
fuel tank support
battery area and inner wings
failing windscreen seals & rust in A pillars, window surround
sunroof drains
B pillars, sills, torsion bar hole
underside of doors
failing rear screen rubber => parcel shelf area, rear seat area, seam at base of side window
engine lid corners and their supports near the rear lamps
etc etc
Nick Moss of early 911 fame made a few pictures of what can be found http://www.early911.co.uk/html/buyer_s-guide.html
The best way forward is perhaps to post more information: VIN and engine number and we can go from there!
This is one (US based) purchase inspection scheme to go through to give you an idea.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_prepurchase/911_prepurchase.htm
All the best
Bert
ALARM BELLS ringing hard but let's not panic. Firstly: there is no such thing as a cheap porsche; the only way you can keep costs down is a) if you do a lot of the work yourself, b) you can get spare parts at discounted/ trade prices or, c) buy the best vehicle you can afford.
Secondly, in order to determine the value, let's be precise about what car we are talking here. A 2.7 litre 911 was produced from september 1973 with 150 bhp (911) 175 bhp (911S) and 210bhp( 2.7 carrera). In september 1975 the model range was revised with 165bhp (911) and a 3 litre 200 bhp (carrera 3.0).
A big revision came through in september 1977 whereby all normally aspirated 911's had 3 litre engines with 180 bhp, from 1980 onward 188 bhp and in 1981 204 bhp. This model range is called the "SC" which ran until the 3.2 carrera was introduced in september 1983.
The rule of thumb is that you take the market price of a very good vehicle and subtract the cost of what it would cost to restore your car to that standard. Often this will be a disappointing exercise. If it is still worthwhile for you (journey more interesting than the goal etc), by all means we will give you all the support you will need but once again, it might just be cheaper and more enjoyable to buy a relatively sorted driver with a valid MOT and improve it as you go along.
Thirdly, rust is a killer.From september 1975 all 911 were galvanised (early coupe's roof excepted) but the early impact bumpered cars had quite basic corrosion protection. If the B-pillars are rusted through then it might be likely that a whole host of rust nests are hidden out of sight. Please do take a knowledgeble porsche person with you as within 10 minutes it can be determined how bad the situation is. I am thinking:
rust under headlamp bowls
fuel tank support
battery area and inner wings
failing windscreen seals & rust in A pillars, window surround
sunroof drains
B pillars, sills, torsion bar hole
underside of doors
failing rear screen rubber => parcel shelf area, rear seat area, seam at base of side window
engine lid corners and their supports near the rear lamps
etc etc
Nick Moss of early 911 fame made a few pictures of what can be found http://www.early911.co.uk/html/buyer_s-guide.html
The best way forward is perhaps to post more information: VIN and engine number and we can go from there!
This is one (US based) purchase inspection scheme to go through to give you an idea.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_prepurchase/911_prepurchase.htm
All the best
Bert
bones
New member
Everything Bert says is spot on but I'd just reinforce that if there is rust in one place there is very likely going to be more. If you really must consider this car then get a Specialist to go over it for you, the money this will cost you will be recouped when you walk away from it or you won't notice spending the cash if it really is a 'bargain'.
And to answer the actual question (ie what might it cost) well of course depends on what they find, but you can reckon on a couple of thou.
I'd endorse both the above views. And remember even if you don't pay much for the car, based on what you know to be wrong, there won't be much leeway for something else unexpected cropping up. And you won't be able to use it while its being repaired...
I'd endorse both the above views. And remember even if you don't pay much for the car, based on what you know to be wrong, there won't be much leeway for something else unexpected cropping up. And you won't be able to use it while its being repaired...
thanks for all the advice, however having owned and repaired at least a dozen beetles then rust and mechanics hold no fear.
like i said owner said 2.7 engine but car looks slightly newer however foreign plates dont tell me much. the reason slightly vague is i saw it about 2 years ago at time owner wouldn't sell as he promised he was going to "get round to doing it"( heard that a few times !) so only made a quick inspection now having spoken to a friend he still hasn't" got round to doing it" suprise suprise. and figures mentioned mean its possibly going to be worth restoring. i am in the trade so have plenty of contacts to turn to and am under no illusions what projects cost (set your budget, then double it!)
i am tempted to build an rs replica yes another one sorry but i like them and if panels are being replaced anyway well it would be rude not to,
i think i will go and have another look this time with a buying head on and see just how bad it is. but at the end of the day it is still a 911 and one restored is better than one scrapped is it not?
like i said owner said 2.7 engine but car looks slightly newer however foreign plates dont tell me much. the reason slightly vague is i saw it about 2 years ago at time owner wouldn't sell as he promised he was going to "get round to doing it"( heard that a few times !) so only made a quick inspection now having spoken to a friend he still hasn't" got round to doing it" suprise suprise. and figures mentioned mean its possibly going to be worth restoring. i am in the trade so have plenty of contacts to turn to and am under no illusions what projects cost (set your budget, then double it!)
i am tempted to build an rs replica yes another one sorry but i like them and if panels are being replaced anyway well it would be rude not to,
i think i will go and have another look this time with a buying head on and see just how bad it is. but at the end of the day it is still a 911 and one restored is better than one scrapped is it not?
I guess its all been said - just my 2p worth (and a correction).
The 1976 MY 2.7 Lux, 165 BHP, began life in August 1975 not September (take my word for it, I have an August car authenticated by Porsche AG).
Unfortunately even a brilliant body restorer can only see what is on the outside (as you can), problems can occur with what you can't see until the car is dismantled. It is amazing what filler, tin cans, metal plates can achieve! Even late '80's cars, if not looked after, can rot away - galvanising is not a saviour but can restrict damage.
The problem with the car in question is that it is not considered (at present) one of the elite Porsches therefore you can pour money in and not get it back - great if it is the one for you to keep but not if you are thinking of 'moving on' to something else in a couple of years.
PJC
The 1976 MY 2.7 Lux, 165 BHP, began life in August 1975 not September (take my word for it, I have an August car authenticated by Porsche AG).
Unfortunately even a brilliant body restorer can only see what is on the outside (as you can), problems can occur with what you can't see until the car is dismantled. It is amazing what filler, tin cans, metal plates can achieve! Even late '80's cars, if not looked after, can rot away - galvanising is not a saviour but can restrict damage.
The problem with the car in question is that it is not considered (at present) one of the elite Porsches therefore you can pour money in and not get it back - great if it is the one for you to keep but not if you are thinking of 'moving on' to something else in a couple of years.
PJC
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