I have a manual Gen I 997 turbo which I enjoy very much. Two things niggle me a little; firstly you have to be very quick and precise to change up from first to second when accelerating hard to avoid red-lining and secondly the brakes are not really strong enough for track days - you feel you need more. I have noticed however that prices for the 997 turbo seem to be holding if not ?climbing on sites such as Pistonheads [is this true or I am seeing things?]. My reasons for wondering whether to upgrade have been tempered by the fact that the Gen I turbo is the last of the Mezger engines [does this matter? Will this make them more collectable in the future?] and secondly the manual has been seen as a better car than the tiptronic of the same model [clearly the PDK is a leap forward in technology and is for many superior to the feel of a manual]. So should I hang onto my Gen I manual turbo - do members think it may actually accrue in value? I imagine many may think that the Gen II turbo S is better because of PCCB brakes, PDK, engine mounts and a slight increase in power, but is it worth the extra £30+k. Thank you, i would value opinions please
should I trade in my gen I 997 manual turbo for a gen II turbo S
- Thread starter duncangould
- Start date
thanks guys. Clive is the turbo S a different drive? Does it feel tighter and more responsive [remember I have a manual and the PDK will help with speed] - how does the driving experience differ to a Gen I T please. Has anyone else noticed that 997 turbos seem to have stabilised price wise
ok Clive I am getting there - gradually, -you are selling the idea to me. You clearly know the cars and have owned and driven both derivatives, so can you please tell me the major differences and benefits of a gen II turbo S over a Gen I manual turbo; PCCB brakes, engine mounts [do this really really make a difference?] PDK and power are a given. Anything else that a gen II S over a Gen I manual turbo please? I gather the weights are the same - right? What did they do above and beyond this at Porsche apart from trim things which I am not interested in to warrant such a price differential? Does it sound better is another question; I have heard from some that it does - is this true? Any information and any comments would be helpful as I am in the zone now. I also presume that I won't need brown trousers and 2 canisters of air freshers in each pocket when I go down the Lavant straight at 145+ looking at the wall of death fast approaching and trying to break as hard as I can etc etc. As much info as possible would be very welcomed. Duncan, PCGB member 1952.
I agree with Clive - the S was a sharper car and more focused but it also eggs you on to push that harder while the demon on your shoulder says "soon....." i.e. it can bite but only in really silly conditionsORIGINAL: Lancerlot
Chalk and cheese, Duncan. []
Faster, sharper, more responsive, easier to drive, better handling and road holding, but you do need a decent geo setup to get the best from it.
Get one - you know you want to! [
Regards,
Clive.
Your best bet is go out and drive one. Your idea of a great car may be quite different to mine.
The brakes and PDK are the biggest improvement over a Gen 1 Turbo. I'm not a flappy paddle flipper myself and tend to leave the box to do its own thing. It's an intuitive piece of kit, learns your driving style quickly and seems to select the correct gear 95% of the time.
I don't use sport or sport plus often either - there's ample grunt in normal mode, although it's gratifying to know there are a couple of additional levels if needed!
I like the centrelocks too because they look good and it's great engineering. I have had no problems pulling the wheels on and off when I want.
Regards,
Clive.
The brakes and PDK are the biggest improvement over a Gen 1 Turbo. I'm not a flappy paddle flipper myself and tend to leave the box to do its own thing. It's an intuitive piece of kit, learns your driving style quickly and seems to select the correct gear 95% of the time.
I don't use sport or sport plus often either - there's ample grunt in normal mode, although it's gratifying to know there are a couple of additional levels if needed!
I like the centrelocks too because they look good and it's great engineering. I have had no problems pulling the wheels on and off when I want.
Regards,
Clive.
Gordon Attar
New member
The std Gen1 997TT manual prices have basically stopped depreciating at £40k in 2013, so you have your choice of gen 1 2005 to 2008 cars for £40-50K. There have been a few sub £40k cars mostly been poor cars eg ragged ,damaged or high on ignition fires. Tips regularly found for 10% less.
They are very unlikely to go downwards for now as 996TT prices have gone up by 10-15% in last 9 months to low to mid £30's for average cars. You would need to allow for some 10%depreciation on the Gen 2 cars until they get down to late £40s less for the TTS as rarer. There will be a point in a few years when the lower mileage Gen 1 manual cars will appreciate past the PDK cars.
Have you thought about buying a late gen car with ceramic brakes or even adding them to your own car. Last time I checked the kit was c £9k inc a calipers and all fittings.
They are very unlikely to go downwards for now as 996TT prices have gone up by 10-15% in last 9 months to low to mid £30's for average cars. You would need to allow for some 10%depreciation on the Gen 2 cars until they get down to late £40s less for the TTS as rarer. There will be a point in a few years when the lower mileage Gen 1 manual cars will appreciate past the PDK cars.
Have you thought about buying a late gen car with ceramic brakes or even adding them to your own car. Last time I checked the kit was c £9k inc a calipers and all fittings.
Granted, tastes are personal, but here's my experience.
I had numerous 911s, all bought new from the mid-80s. Always fancied a Turbo but never quite gelled with them - preferring N/A.
Tried a Gen 1 997T and it left me a bit cold, but reading the early reports of the Gen 2, decided to go for a Turbo 'S', which I owned for 3 years. And, yes, the sum of the parts did make for an improved car - slightly nicer chassis, slightly nicer engine sound, fabulous brakes, and a formidable 'all weather' GT.
However, I never completely engaged with it - brutally quick with the clever PDK, but not as satisfying as most N/A 911s, IMO. I actually think it would have been better with a 6-spd manual - so I would be tempted to try a high spec non-PDK Gen 2 997T
By comparison I found the 991 C2S - and especially the C4S - much nicer, although still dependent on PDK, owing to the poor 7-spd manual option.
As I said, horses for courses, but the Turbo models aren't to everyone's tastes
I had numerous 911s, all bought new from the mid-80s. Always fancied a Turbo but never quite gelled with them - preferring N/A.
Tried a Gen 1 997T and it left me a bit cold, but reading the early reports of the Gen 2, decided to go for a Turbo 'S', which I owned for 3 years. And, yes, the sum of the parts did make for an improved car - slightly nicer chassis, slightly nicer engine sound, fabulous brakes, and a formidable 'all weather' GT.
However, I never completely engaged with it - brutally quick with the clever PDK, but not as satisfying as most N/A 911s, IMO. I actually think it would have been better with a 6-spd manual - so I would be tempted to try a high spec non-PDK Gen 2 997T
By comparison I found the 991 C2S - and especially the C4S - much nicer, although still dependent on PDK, owing to the poor 7-spd manual option.
As I said, horses for courses, but the Turbo models aren't to everyone's tastes
Possibly. What makes a car collectable can be influenced by some history or heritage to accompany it.
I think so too. I think the turbos take some time to become collectable because they are the cars that Porsche throws the most tech at, so each successor gets measured against its predecessor in terms of how much extra tech it has and how much the tech has moved on. Probably less so with cars like the GT3 where initially, more tech is not so readily welcomed and even if the newer car is a superior drive, there'll be something about the feel of the older car that people will still like. Also it takes some time because they are not produced in limited numbers and are often used more liberally than say a GT3. But in says 20 years when many a leggy and tired example are excluded and a smaller number of desirable cars remain, then we see the collectability desire increase the values as we can see on many earlier turbo models.
I think the 997.2 turbo may struggle a bit more with collectability (I could be wrong) because it is the beginning of a new tech era with the DFI engine, PDK etc etc for which (and as I say, turbos are a tech fest) the 991 turbo will have moved the game on in many ways. Whereas, the 997.1 turbo is the end of an era. People talk about the last of the air cooled engines as the end of an era, so maybe so with the last of the Mezger engined cars (including NA Mezger models). Who knows. Time will tell when the new cars get to 20 years old, with a lot more tech that could expire on a 20 year old car, such as dynamic engine mounts, PTV and anything else that includes sensors and electronic control systems. We live in a throw-away society now where a lot of the things we purchase are uneconomical to repair or replace and the whole item is cast aside. I'm a fan of PDK etc but it remains to be seen whether people will want to own a 20 year old car with components that aren't as serviceable as more predominantly mechanical components. [I'm not saying the old car doesn't have electronics or that the Mezger is cheap to maintain - just saying that the tech components are getting more and more.]
There's always a conflict between choosing a car for future collectability and choosing a car to enjoy here and now regardless of what the future holds but if you try to cover the 2 criteria you may end up in turmoil or not enjoying yourself as much as you should. Buy what would satisfy you here and now[
]. I could have kept my previous car and made a few more quid than what I sold it for, but i'm having fun in my current car regardless of how it's appreciation or depreciation compares to the car I let go. If i'm lucky enough to be owning a future collectable that'll just be a bonus. And you never know how long you'll keep a car anyway - best laid plans and all that.Thank you very much for all your helpful and informative replies. I am going to test drive 997 turbo S gen 2 at the weekend. Seems to have been owned by a furniture company executive who has consistently done 18k miles per annum from the north to London over the last 4 years thus the tachograph states 74k. Its a 2011 model and is in black with dark grey intetior. Had an estimate on my gen I turbo from a very well respected Porsche focused independent which has put at least 4k over what I paid for it 2 years ago. Apparently gen I 997 manual black and black turbos are doing well, following the resurgence in 996 prices. Anyway, as has been mentioned it's all about how one feels with the car so I will let you know how it goes. Many thanks for the very useful comments.
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