Sills: What it Cost & Where

[944 man]

In order to help other members, and to help put a stop to the foolish exaggerations about cost (currently up to £1,200 per side, I believe): Im proposing a thread where people can talk about the work that they have had done and the people who did it for them.

Hopefully this can become a resource for people attempting to evaluate the cost of making proper repairs; and for those looking for a recommendation for a good job and a keen price.

I hope that chat can be kept to a minimum, or perhaps edited out afterwards: leaving a useful thread to keep in the FAQ section for future reference.


Simon

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I asked for exactly this in the last Porsche Post, and have been overwhelmed by the interest. A total of one reply so far. [&:]

The problem with costings is that there is so much variation regionally. Around my area you're looking at £65 per hour plus VAT, other people have reported "mates rates" of less than half that, and cash-in-hand.

What I'd like is the amount of work done, in hours rather than £££s, so people have a ballpark figure to work on based on what they are being charged locally to them.

Also, the amount of extra work that was done, as very few people only have the sills repaired without other areas being sorted at the same time.

Lastly, The quality of work varies massively. Perhaps mark your repairs on a scale of one to ten, where one is an absolute bodge-up purely to keep the car on the road, and ten is a proper restoration job to concours standard?

 

[simdel1]

In an ideal world before and after photos would be great too. A photo showing the actual finished job (because one man's concours is another man's pigeon poo and hammerite job) would be nice at the least.

 

[944 man]

We need Jeremy to start the ball rolling then: I believe that his Turbo had a good deal of work done for a very fair price...

 

[Fat Albert]

'appy to oblige sir!
I had mine done last year at TWG in Peterborough who use a local trusted bodyshop, they have never charged anyone more than £800 to sort the sills out, mine came in at £600, higher than expected due to the rot having crept up my NSR wing. Obviously I have no idea what is going on with the inners, but I am very happy with the result & price and is commensurate with the overall condition/mileage/useage of my car, a full concourse restoration is not appropriate for mine!
some before & Afters:

 

[wolfie308]

I'm sure this will be a most interesting thread as it's something that's likely to be affecting most cars to a greater or lesser extent even if the owners are not aware. I had mine done about 2 years ago by a local family owned village garage I have known and used for various jobs over the last 30 years.

It was initially to have the sills rubbed done, filled and paint up to the top of the stone chip line - I thought the bubbling was only superficial, but ended up with new genuine sills both sides, some patching to the inners, cosmetic wing bottom repairs and then respray both sides completely and the front P.U.

Total including the sills came to £1200 paid part cash/mate's rate. Their normal bodyshop charge at the time was £30/hour and I was told with the extra unforseen work came to nearly 40 hours! The sills themselves cost £289. Overall job very good and excellent value, no bubbling has reappeared.

Generally I've found that bodywork charges are up to half typically what you'll pay for mechanical work. Last time I spoke to Alan at S.A.R Classics about a year ago, he was still only quoting £32/hour, whereas my Indie's new service rate is £60/hour + VAT

 

[supersport]

I paid £176 to have both sides patched up about half the length. This was a days work ( I think) and didn't include any paint work, just protected against rust.

Previous owner fitted 968 sill covers to hide the rot and so nice clean paint wasn't required at this stage.

 

[944 man]

Where at Mark?

 

[supersport]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Where at Mark?

Spectrum Auto Services, Unit 27 James Street Raylor Centre, York, YO10 3DW (01904 430 205
). They have done 944s in the past and do body work, servicing and MOTs. The chap that runs it is a bit of a classic nut.

 

[colin944]

I would suggest that £1200 per side is extremely high.The cost would very much depend on how bad the rot was and how far in it had got. But if you were just replacing the sill panel as bought from Porsche you could do it in a day easy and I would be surprised if a local welder would charge any more than £100 - £150. This would obviously not include painting. If the rot was worse then the charge would be more but it all depends on the skill level of the person doing the welding.If your rear arch bottom is rotten then you will have a good bit of fabrication to do as well.Alot of the rot involved is hidden and you can't see how bad it is until you have removed the outer sill and cleaned the under seal off of the floor around the join between the inner sill and the floor.
What we need is a list of people who have been used and proved to do a good job with how much you payed. That way people can take their cars along and get a quote before getting the job done safe in the knowlage that the car will be in safe hands.
If you botch a job in this area you could end up with a car that looks nice but has a serious weak area around the important rear suspension mounts etc.
I have already done this job on my car and would happily do it again, but I am not sure I would do anyone elses car as I am guilty of going to far and just cutting out any metal that looks even a bit rusty.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I would suggest that £1200 per side is extremely high

As I've said before, I don't think anyone's paid this much for sills alone. Factor in repairs to the front and rear wings as well, and a good quality paint job to include any other areas of the car that need doing, south-east labour rates and 20% for the government and you could easily get up to over £2K though.

 

[944 man]

£1,200 per side was a 'looking clever' exaggeration made by one particular member.

You only have to look at post # 5 to see that perfectly good work can be completed on previously tatty cars for £600.

 

[Joss Walker]

Work currently being done by Alan at SAR Countryside Classics

Remove & refit doors, door fittings, front & rear seat, carpet and sill fittings - 10 hours labour
Replace panels - lower section of front wings, lower section rear wings, inner and outer sills, floor to sill panels and a couple of minor underbody repairs - 24 hours labour
Panel repair - back section of rear wings, nose cone, doors - 6 hours labour
Prep, Prime & top coat - all of car,(it has no roof) underseal, waxoyl etc as required - 24 hours labour
Sills, Paint, transfers and the bit of underbody plastic trim that caused this trouble in the first place - 1,200GBP!

The grand plan is for my car to be a 'keeper' and I wanted the body as perfect as possible so my total just tops the 1200 per side that is often quoted

 

[vince944red]

I'm in the process of doing it myself on my 86 NA.
There is no point comparing pictures on the outside! all the work is on the inside.
From the metal I removed I could see the sills had been replaced twice before. I also had some sill covers on hiding a lot that were there whne I bought it.
The inner sill corrodes very badly.
The whole bottom of the inner sill had to be replaced compleltly and refabricated in position and re-attacehed to the lower body using a piece of 2mm angle steel as a reference point for attacehment of the sill then the inner sill rebuilt on top of it..
the rear wing behind the front face needs complete reconstruction from scratch (Americans call this the pinch and I know why) The front wing lowers needed new pieces welding in.
I had imagined the job was all welding - no its all fabricating and trying to work put how to make something you can weld that will last.
I can see from the previous attempts POs had had done - its easy to do it quickly because the inside is hidden from the customer, I don't believe there was any paint on the inside from previous 'repairs' So if going to a garage only use one you trust and insist on viewing or photos (detail) before the sill cover is fixed on to see proper rust protection, seal sealant and inner welds.
I've spent 150 hours at least total for the two sides and not yet painted them . I'm not as quick as a garage and lack some tools, easy access ( only have a set of ramps) and I tend to think too much rather than get on with it. So say I wasted 50 hours. At 30£ an hour a hundred hours is £3000......... and I don't charge myself VAT and there was £150 for the sills and rear wing outers and £50 on bits and sheet metal and £50 at least on paint and underseal. Mind you having done it once I could do it a lot quicker next time.
My car will never be concourse so I refused to buy OEM parts. Oh and I got the sills from flashgordon who is a memeber here or tipec or both, highly recommended.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I've spent 150 hours at least total for the two sides and not yet painted them .

My car will never be concourse so I refused to buy OEM parts.

What's your thinking behind spending so much time yet not spending a little extra on proper parts?

Not having a go here, genuinely interested. My attitude is that the original sills fit perfectly, and lasted twenty years even when not regularly protected. As labour is the major cost in either money or time, is it worth buying aftermarket parts?

 

[colin944]

Vince I know exactly how you feel. i am doing the same as you and you are right it is all fabrication. see my what lies beneath threads to see loads of pictures. I also had to replace about half of the floor on each side. I bought a whole floor pan from andy at promax and new sills from porsche.

 

[vince944red]

my approach to OEM parts is completly pragmatic.The sills I bought from flashgordon are very well made if simple sections, having same material thickness as original. and fit in a similar way. They preserve the door step edge which is always ok. I don't have a spot welder (although MIG can sort of do it) for the oem parts. All the problems occur at the bottom of the sills, I chopped off good metal at the top.

Theres nothing magic about original parts the remainder of the car is rusting away merrily despite my best efforts - a new OEM set of sills won't last 20 years........ you can't seal up the sill like the original construction and you have to remove zinc plate to weld , so where does the rust start... at the welds

You have to accept as the car gets old that its not possible to put it back as it was when new ( or at least I do, I can't afford that and if I could I'd buy a later model!) My hours are cheaper than spending money on parts, and I can take more care than a garage can in limiting the rust recurring again by seam sealant, paint, waxoyl and careful attention to details.

You have to ask yourself where are you going to stop - the inners sills needs replacing - its an enourmous job to do. Bits of floor pan ( or at least the bits from the sill to the floor pan) need replacing, A pillar bottoms, do I buy porsche parts or make them?. Jacking points are corroding, front wing bottoms are dubious, at least the supension mounts are ok and the seat belt mounts.

I should be ready for MOT in the next few weeks at least if it stops raining,

Vince

 

[colin944]

I am not going to replace the jack points as I think they are just crap traps that lead to rust.I totaly agree with what you are saying about taking care and sealing/painting as many bits as you can while you are in there. I believe that most owners would have a panic attack if they could see inside the sills and inside the double skins at the rear wheel arch.I use a mig welder and prefer to drill and plug weld along the joints instead of spot welding like the factory did. I did try using a spot welder but I felt that it wasn't giving a strong enough weld especailly along the top seam and bottom seam of the sill panel.If when I am finnished I can get another ten years out of the car before I have to do it again then I will be happy.

 

[vince944red]

yes the sill mounting is awkward for MIG welding on ramps (by me) - , because of the way its constructed you can't clamp anything face to face to weld it and have an edge to clamp it together. So I resorted to 3 self tapping screws then a string of MIG plug welds, after several alternative ideas which did not work - these wasted some time. Basically the lower edge has to go over the inner sill to new metal to be welded on the back from underneath and flashgordon did tell me this so then I worked it out myself instead of listening. If spot welding a one sided spot welder would be needed for this joint

The jacking points are rust traps, they are going.

If I did it again I'd buy a metal bender like the sealey ones on ebay for 50-60£, I could have saved the cost of this in the sheet bends I did I was not happy with and had to scrap!

 

[simkin911]

I've recently bought a turbo and would like to tidy up the bodywork to "my standard".
Prime Finish in Bonnyrigg, Midlothian have quoted me:

Body shop
Fit new sills
Repair/refurbish both lower rear quarters
Repair/refurbish both lower front wings
Repair boot "bucket" bottom (drivers side)
Clean and prepare inner sills, arches and floor and apply protective coating
Repair door hinge
Repaint in satin finish rear spoiler and window frames etc
Tackle odd rust spots around arches and boot lid
Repaint lower half of wings, door and rear quarters - lacquering both sides fully
Machine polish rest of car and repair/detail any chipping/marks making good
Reapply stone guards
Refurbish all alloys (in black)
Total Price £1100
(Essentially he said they are quoting metalwork at £300, paintwork at £400, wheels £200, machine polish £80 plus the other little jobs).

Parts
Sills £318 from OPC
Door hinges £72 OPC
Stone guards £35

Circa £1500 the lot!

I don't think this is a lot of money for quite a bit of work. Invariably on this type of thread, someone will say "cheap job etc..". Well, Prime Finish fully resprayed my s2 over the winter and performed a number of other jobs at the time. I was very happy with the finished result.

I'm confident the turbo will look excellent on my return from holiday when I pick it up!