Specialist tuning 944 / 951

[George Elliott]

Gents, are you aware of anyone ever taking a 944 / 951 and producing a Special Tuned Car as a properly rounded package.

What I have in mind is a car like RUF do, or like Tuthills did for Chris Harris, or like Singer do......

The quick answer is all our cars are individual within our capabilities, but if there was a £50k budget car put together could it be Retailed for £75k?

Who would do it.....JMG.......Hartech.......Promax.....some good initiatives shown over the years by each of these Companies

WUF deserves a mention - way before its time I think, and the 968 Turbo was a very modest start perhaps.

The spec would need to be a 450hp/400lb/ft, 16v Turbo, Dry Sump, 6 Speed, Recaro's, Sunroof delete, seam welded, LSD, Sublime suspension & C/G alignment, PCCB to suit 16" rims, Carbon Bonnet, Manual windows, Auto Wipers, Dimming Rear View mirror, Remote Locking, Front splitter, no polished parts or bling, matt black tailpipe, Single Flag Door mirror, CS Forged Rims OE anodised, Alcantara Headcloth, RS Door Pull Straps, Navigation/Phone.ICE Package
Choice of Colours : India Red, Polar Silver, GT Silver, Diamond Blue, Midnight Blue, Gold, Black, Metallic Grey, Pearl White Metallic.
Sport or Touring Spec.

This thing would perform up with 4.0 GT3's and the auto press would have great respect for its dynamics. It would be equal or easier to drive in the wet than a 991, remember its a fundamentally better layout. Sabine, Steffan, Walter would all acknowledge its capabilities

Thx for considering this far if you get here, now the $10M question, could it be marketed successfully with say 1 car per month production to order for the World wide Market?

George
944t

 

[944Turbo]

I have thought about it, and discussed it with Simon - who has probably come closest to doing just that with his ground up restorations - its a lot of time and money to invest with a small or possibly no market.

 

[edh]

Would be a great car but can't see any market for this at all sorry. If rich people wanted these things they would be doing them already. The only cars that approach / exceed this sort of money are the original race cars, 944 cup, CGTS / CGTR's etc.. Me, I'd prefer a 400hp dry sump Michael Mount n/a motor []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Interesting idea, but what's the market? Excluding Cup cars, is any 944 worth way over £20K?

There are "new" versions of old cars, like the Lyonheart E-type interpretation. Bespoke, beautiful, £300K-plus and I'd bet one never gets driven other than to shows.

Then there are modern rebuilds of classic cars, like the Eagle E-Type or the V-Eight Jensen Interceptor: a classic look, but with modern running gear. Still easily£100K plus, and again unlikely to be used much as the owner probably has half a dozen more practical cars to choose from. Possibly viable with something like a 356, but not a 944.

We still don't see much demand here for the obvious 944 "update" with an LS engine, so often raised on PH but seemingly too much money even when £25K or so is mentioned as a project price.

That leaves perfect originals or dedicated race cars, where you occasionally see them selling for £20K-plus, being the very top of the market. I just don't see enough people paying £75K for a 944, however good a modern interpretation it is. Would you really buy one over a GT3RS at the same price?

 

[GlennS]

Pop onto the Autotrader web site. Set your max and min prices to 75k and 65k respectively. Search. When you see the options available for your 75k that will explain why this idea would never fly.

 

[Diver944]

It's only the few of us on this forum that would want a car like that and most of us don't have the readies lying around for it (well, apart from Ewan [] )

IIRC AndrewS said that Promax could build a ground up 'new' 944 with LS1 V8 engine, fresh paint, interior and running gear etc for circa £20k but no one came forward.

 

[George Elliott]

Hmmmm

944Turbo has thought about it

Edh acknowledges it would be great but has an unfortunate turbo allergy

Paul, is any 944T worth over £20k?...not yet i suppose, but if a moth eaten 911T can be turned into a £75k product with 300hp max, is it not possible to hit the same value with a 944t which would blow the socks of it? E-Types are a good example of it too. LS Engines - I would seriously go diesel with a 335d before putting a yank engine in a german car. Horrible idea. Good question....GT3RS or 944 GT2.....the answer is perhaps the GT3 customer knows the 944 is a better car than his kettle, but wont discuss it - so he may wish to own both...?

GlennS Good practical suggestion, I had a look....R8's Gallardo's, Benz 63s, 993 Turbo, 997 Turbo, Maserati's - lots of bling. The masses will go for that stuff but I have to say it all has little appeal to me. (993 Turbo excepted) There is no pedigree in an R8 for example. (I have not driven most of them) I take your point though - people will go for the modern stuff.

Diver944 Ewan, what colour do you want?[] Unfortunately it sounds like the car would be aimed at the US, Middle East or Asia not any of us. I am allergic to the Vauxhall v8, maybe ok in a Corvette but its wrong for this application.

thanks for the interesting viewpoints gents

 

[John Sims]

And, boring, but a major issue would be insurance. All of us who have "invested" money in our cars run the risk of them being written off for little more than a stone chip and getting a fraction of what we have put into the car.

I think it will be another 10 years before 944's start to become true "Classic" status because they are still so contemporary and, by then, rust and boy racers will have whittled down many but the good cars. Even then restoration costs will easily over take car values.

This is a common issue with 356's apparently. They often require far more spent on them to undertake a good restoration than a well restored car is worth in a straight sale. 944's may not be quite as bad as the galvanised body will have resisted rust better than a 356.

All that said if I had the room and the money I would love to do a proper bare shell build on a 944. Not a restoration because, in this day and age, there are better road cars. A totally rust free, new parts, stripped out 944 track car would be a joy though. Also then it wouldn't be such an issue replacing unobtainium parts for contemporary/better/cheaper/available parts.

 

[John Sims]

In retrospect I think George probably hinted at the best option in his original post - a 968 Turbo.

The 968 Turbo has Classic and rarity value. If you were to produce an "as new" 968 Turbo, even on a shell which wasn't originally a Turbo, you would stand more chance of making money than with a 944. Think of the 924 Carrera GT. Originals are worth good money and good replicas are worth well in excess of a good bogo 924.

 

[TTM]

People purchasing a 924CGT may relate to the racing heritage of the 924 GTP/GTR that ran at Le Mans where they achieved respectable reliability/results as the 924 was launched only a few years earlier, as a whole new production car featuring an exotic layout for Porsche - layout further hyped-up by the then-flagship and also new car that the 928 was. Those GTP/GTR cars looked like fully-developed racers that came from Mars and bore little visual similarity with the road cars they were derived from.

None of this can be said of the sloppy 968 turbo I'm afraid, which is a shame really as years of development made it obviously superior as a road car than the clunky 924... which brings us back to the old reason why an agricultural G-model 911 may always represent better cash value than a 944 turbo of the same year. The 924CGT has a strong visual identity with specific body parts, while the 968 turbo looks like a standard car with bigger wheels and a rear wing that many could think it came from Halford, if I were to be a bit harsh. I have not been in a 924CGT but having some experience with the original 968 turbo S it's not difficult for me to imagine that the 924CGT may be a lot more fun to drive, if much slower.

Now back to George's original question, I feel like I have gathered a bit of experience playing with my car and swapping engine components to be able to say that I could build and tune another genuinely good engine if someone asked, but the lack of market for this kind of exercise, that IMO does remain expensive even just counting quality parts, doesn't encourage offering the service.

 

[Ewan]

I'd agree there's no market for a £75k parts-bin 944. But I'd pay good money for a properly restored "as new" 951 in useable road trim that looked standard but was tweaked to, say, 350 bhp.

In Porsche terms I'd prefer that to £20k or so of 997, 996, Cayman, Boxter. I have to tell myself this to justify my recent expenditure...

Let's hope the rolling road figures at Thruxton next Saturday give me something to smile about.

 

[MarkK]

When I bought my red car,I restored the body,suspension,gearbox,clutch,torque tube,brakes including Calipers,plus a relatively extensive Promax tuning programme,it's a road car that can be hustled around a circuit or cruise down the M5 in relative comfort.Its a nice package whilst looking very standard,I read an article on RUF yellowbird a few years back and honestly I saw a lot of similar characteristics![],so that's how I sort of see her now,my interpretation of what a turbo would have been like had it been put together by a period German tuner or manufacturer like RUF.The suspension is setup very effectively as a road and occasional circuit car and it stops on a sixpence with uprated brakes and quite hardcore Pagid pads.
Two moderatly negative things that have to be taken into account are the low clearance and slightly waffley exhaust note at idle but once you get going she sounds great,a teeny bit boomy on long trips perhaps.
The person that buys it one day will have a chuckle when reading through the build costs.....
On occasion when I have been sensible I have tossed the idea around of selling her on,but when I have a drive and spend time in the car I get all attached again.
I think a great car would be a hybrid of a 944 turbo race car,stripped out and lightened but with a few creature comforts being retained,it's a shame but i don't think there is a market for a commercially produced car package like Singer have done with the 911 as the 944 turbo isn't appreciated as much as its air cooled relatives but they are genuinely fast cars when pitched against 911s,and other fast cars of the period,would certainly be great to see though...
Didnt 9ff(I think they closed?) have a go at producing a twin turbo package after being asked for one by a rich client come to think of it!???????Maybe that's as close as anyone got to starting an official commercial rethink...?I am not into the American engine idea myself.

 

[944Turbo]

The 4 cylinder 50k plus car is a very rare beast, even the new Alfa with its carbon tub is criticised for being a 4. The 968 turbo s struggled to sell when it was new and it is only its rarity that makes it valuable now.
Was the 968 TS one of the most expensive 4 cylinders of all time?
The LS v8 is a compact motor that produces an easy 430bhp with a multi cylinder sound track. There are German alternatives 5,6, and 8 but for similar outputs it would be tricky to make it physically fit. For the GE 944 I think an LS would be a good starting point. It could be re-engineered / badged as a GE v8 different cams etc to change its character. If it was deemed necessary to create the right image and the budget is there maybe even a flat plane crank. To look like a 50 - 75k car I think the panel gaps need to be shrunk and maybe the arches subtly stretched. Tricky stuff!

 

[TTM]

The only engine I would consider replacing the original one for would be the R32 engine as found in the Cayenne V6 as a base, then turbocharge it. Will be reliable, can be made powerful more than enough and offer a decent soundtrack.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: TTM

The only engine I would consider replacing the original one for would be the R32 engine as found in the Cayenne V6 as a base, then turbocharge it. Will be reliable, can be made powerful more than enough and offer a decent soundtrack.

But would it fit? I have seen a Cayenne V8 on a crane and it looked massive! An RS4 v6 might just fit (with some clever turbo plumbing) but they are not that robust.
Tony

 

[TTM]

A colleague has one of these in a Golf Mk2, obviously in a transverse position, but there is still a very large GT42 turbo behind it, so I'm pretty sure it would fit in a 944. I'm fairly sure it's not as tall as the V8. Remember it's a narrower V angle and uses only one cylinder head, so it's a rather compact engine considering the number of cylinders. Will try to measure it...

 

[CarreraRSR]

So given you have £50-75k burning a hole in your back pocket and all other car options are off the table. Do you go for a version of....

A 944 turbo cup spec

Or

A 924 Carrera GTS Clubsport spec

Assuming both were spot on turbo nutter bar stewards of 350-400bhp, stripped, lightened etc. but still retained some mile munching road manners and a few comforts

 

[Diver944]

The thing is both the Turbo Cup and the GTS are genuine cars with a heritage so will always be worth big bucks.

But for me that is completely pointless and not worth the money. I would much rather spend a fraction of their value and do all the work that George has mentioned and end up with a much faster and much better car.

I will never understand these collectors that pay big bucks for museum class cars to sit in a storage locker and only come out once or twice a year for a show. Cars are for driving, not collecting. Either grow up or collect Dinky toys (at least you can keep them on your mantlepiece [] )

 

[CarreraRSR]

And the original turbo cup and GTS will cost far more than £50-75k so a version of them appears value for money and drivable []

 

[Ewan]

But Paul, as a grown up, why would I want to collect toy cars for my mantelpiece when I can collect the real things and keep them in my garages? I haven't driven my 944 in months but it still gives me pleasure whenever I go in their to get one of the others out. But of course, when the sun comes out, so will the 944. (Oh...and I'm taking it to Thruxton on Saturday for the dyno-day)