Surface Transforms
- Thread starter ab80
- Start date
Hi Adam,
Interesting. You obviously have done some research on this subject yourself and received feedback from other users. If there is anything specific you would like to share with us, I'm sure we'd be pleased to hear it?
It seems like quite an investment to make unless your current PCCB's have already worn out.
Regards,
Clive
Interesting. You obviously have done some research on this subject yourself and received feedback from other users. If there is anything specific you would like to share with us, I'm sure we'd be pleased to hear it?
It seems like quite an investment to make unless your current PCCB's have already worn out.
Regards,
Clive
I've not managed to get any feedback from anyone with the latest PCCBs, but the internet is replete with stories of earlier generations failing after very limited track use. The issue appears to be (E&OE) that PCCBs use a thin layer of chopped carbon fibres as a braking surface (which is glossed), attached to silicon carbide (which is not a braking material). At high (track) temperatures the bond between those two layers breaks down, and the braking surface begins to come off. The breakdown in the bond is irreversible.
The situation appears to have been compounded by the design of earlier generation PCCBs, where gases generated within disc had nowhere to escape to and would blow out parts of the braking surface. The gloss on the current generation crazes with tiny cracks, which apparently addresses this.
Surface Transforms use a continuous weave of carbon fiber, like a folded cloth. I believe they are made of a single material. They therefore do not have issues related to attaching the braking surface to a substrate. They also dissipate heat better, and are much more resistant to impacts. Finally, they can be resurfaced if damaged.
Long story short, for my use case, is that I'm unlikely to get the PCCBs up to temperatures that will cause problems. Further, I was told yesterday by my OPC service adviser that the discs are guaranteed against failure from occasional track use, so this is probably a non-issue. However, given that a set of PCCBs for my car is somewhere around £18k to replace, and that the Surface Transform kit is around half that to supply and fit, technically a better product, less susceptible to accidental damage (eg on wheel changes), and should have a decent re-sale value, I'm considering taking off and storing the PCCBs as a prudent financial hedge! I'm also a bit of a geek and like the engineering behind the STs.
The situation appears to have been compounded by the design of earlier generation PCCBs, where gases generated within disc had nowhere to escape to and would blow out parts of the braking surface. The gloss on the current generation crazes with tiny cracks, which apparently addresses this.
Surface Transforms use a continuous weave of carbon fiber, like a folded cloth. I believe they are made of a single material. They therefore do not have issues related to attaching the braking surface to a substrate. They also dissipate heat better, and are much more resistant to impacts. Finally, they can be resurfaced if damaged.
Long story short, for my use case, is that I'm unlikely to get the PCCBs up to temperatures that will cause problems. Further, I was told yesterday by my OPC service adviser that the discs are guaranteed against failure from occasional track use, so this is probably a non-issue. However, given that a set of PCCBs for my car is somewhere around £18k to replace, and that the Surface Transform kit is around half that to supply and fit, technically a better product, less susceptible to accidental damage (eg on wheel changes), and should have a decent re-sale value, I'm considering taking off and storing the PCCBs as a prudent financial hedge! I'm also a bit of a geek and like the engineering behind the STs.
OK, thanks for that.
PCCB's first saw the light of day on production Porsches with 996 GT2 back in 1992 and there have been several levels of rotor, designed and manufactured by Brembo, since then. Brembo also produce carbon ceramic braking systems for F1 teams.
Early PCCB problems of premature wear resulted from high temperatures due to intense track use and some track-day exponents reverted to steel brakes for economy and reliability reasons. (There were track-day problems with early centre-lock wheels too.) However, I've yet to hear of any specific problems with the latest level of PCCB's. Current TTS brakes are huge and dissipate heat very effectively.
Surface Transforms have just landed a contract to supply Aston Martin on their latest supercar, so clearly the company is a serious player and if you do decide on replacement, I hope you will keep us posted on how it goes.
Your estimated cost for OEM units seems high bearing in mind callipers and associated components are retained and OEM rotors are said to be good for 100K+ miles during normal use, so you may be setting out to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.
BTW - when looking at sourcing a full set of brakes for a project a few years ago, I found it cheaper buying from the Channel Islands where duties are less.
Regards,
Clive
PCCB's first saw the light of day on production Porsches with 996 GT2 back in 1992 and there have been several levels of rotor, designed and manufactured by Brembo, since then. Brembo also produce carbon ceramic braking systems for F1 teams.
Early PCCB problems of premature wear resulted from high temperatures due to intense track use and some track-day exponents reverted to steel brakes for economy and reliability reasons. (There were track-day problems with early centre-lock wheels too.) However, I've yet to hear of any specific problems with the latest level of PCCB's. Current TTS brakes are huge and dissipate heat very effectively.
Surface Transforms have just landed a contract to supply Aston Martin on their latest supercar, so clearly the company is a serious player and if you do decide on replacement, I hope you will keep us posted on how it goes.
Your estimated cost for OEM units seems high bearing in mind callipers and associated components are retained and OEM rotors are said to be good for 100K+ miles during normal use, so you may be setting out to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.
BTW - when looking at sourcing a full set of brakes for a project a few years ago, I found it cheaper buying from the Channel Islands where duties are less.
Regards,
Clive
Thanks Clive. The costing for replacement disks and pads comes from Porsche. The front discs alone are £7k + vat!
As for the longevity of the new gen PCCBs, in the context of the new GT3 Andreas Preuninger is reported as having told PistonHeads "I would always go PCCB I think for weight if you don't track the car too much. If you really are a track racer you should go with the steel rotors just because of money." [https://www.pistonheads.c...r-on-the-new-gt3/35880]
I am not a track racer!
As for the longevity of the new gen PCCBs, in the context of the new GT3 Andreas Preuninger is reported as having told PistonHeads "I would always go PCCB I think for weight if you don't track the car too much. If you really are a track racer you should go with the steel rotors just because of money." [https://www.pistonheads.c...r-on-the-new-gt3/35880]
I am not a track racer!
You should reach out to ChrisW on the forum as he replaced PCCBs on a well tracked Cayman R and now runs a GT4 with ceramics.
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