Suspension Upgrade 944 S2

[herbie75]

I have now got round to ordering a package of parts to fit to my 944, these being:

968CS FRONT SPRINGS
968 FRONT M030 ROLL BAR
BUSHES FOR ABOVE
BUSHES FOR ABOVE
WASHERS FOR ABOVE
968 REAR M030 ROLL BAR FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION
BUSHES FOR ABOVE
2X KONI FRONT INSERTS AND 2X REAR KONI SHOCKS.

I have gone to 3 indy garages to look at fitting the lot and doing a geometry reset. The koni inserts foxed a couple of the them but the link i was provided with on this website http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index.php?article=36 proved very helpful.

Quotes so far (all including the geometry set):

GT-One = £500/£560
RGA = £600
Jaz = £700

On the face of it GT-One seem like the option to go for, but they were probably the least willing to be tied down on price and gave more of a suggestion of cost. Whereas RGA and Jaz both specified 10 hours of work. Having taken the car to RGA before and for convenience sake it is easier to go there.

But, would anyone with experience of this kind of suspension work think 10 hours is excessive for this job?

 

[lali]

Without knowing what you spent on all of the bushes and shocks that looks like a fairly expensive route to a suspension upgrade.

£1200 would have got you a brand new set of GAZ Coilover race suspension fitted fitted and set up. So plus the ARB's and Bushes would be about £1600? ish

Does the setup quote also include re-indexing the Torsion bar?

 

[Big Dave]

Lali
If hes just got the Koni rear shocks, then he wont need the rear lowering.....

Herbie
Try Promax , they know how to do this job.....Its not rocket science to replace this stuff.
BUT if you dont know one end of a spanner from the other, then youl be in the lap of the mechanics, + charged acordingly.....

 

[zcacogp]

Herbie,

10 hours seems very excessive - I am not sure I spent that long on it, and that's first time out, working on the side of the road. A decent place should be able to do it in a lot less than 2 1/2hrs per corner. (Rear shocks are literally a matter of a couple of bolts per side.) Make it 5 hours maximum for someone who is used to doing it and has the right kit to hand and I'll believe it. You don't want to be paying for them to learn how to do it ...

If you can DIY then DIY. It's not hard. Long, and a bit heavy, but not hard.

Also check how good a geo set-up you get when they are done. Bit of string and a spirit level, or something a bit more sophisticated? Look at the geo thread running at the moment for more detail.


Oli.

 

[stevep2000]

Sounds like a shopping list I'd like for my S2. What price did you get the Konis for in the end Herbie?

 

[sawood12]

Ten hours is probably about right - though on the high side - considering that the specialists you spoke to appeared to be flummoxed by the Koni insert system. They would have bound to have over-estimated that part of the job.

 

[herbie75]

to answer a few questions:
I paid £420 inc VAT for the konis with free delivery from proven products.
I think total price for all 968 parts were about £290 inc Vat and delivery. I listed the prices on a previous post:

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=373729&mpage=2&key=suspension

DIY is unfortunately not an option for me, I have no space to work on the car and no tools to do the job, so although I know what a spanner looks like I have no option but to go to a garage to do the work. I have contacted promax to see what they say and will post back with their quote. fingers crossed they will know what they are doing....

 

[sawood12]

I would say that you are looking at a good couple of hours each to instal the Koni inserts by the time you've got them off the car, removed the springs, cut off the top to extract the workings of the old shocks etc. so that's 4 hours just for that. You can easily soak up the remainer of time with ARB's and bushes and the geometry reset.

 

[stevespic]

ORIGINAL: lali

Without knowing what you spent on all of the bushes and shocks that looks like a fairly expensive route to a suspension upgrade.

£1200 would have got you a brand new set of GAZ Coilover race suspension fitted fitted and set up. So plus the ARB's and Bushes would be about £1600? ish

Does the setup quote also include re-indexing the Torsion bar?

Hi lali, Where could you get the above form and fitted for that price ? How would you if possible compare this to say a KW set up ? Thanks Steve.

 

[charles.y]

Can someone please advice if I can just swap the standard sprimgs on my S2 with the 968 CS lowered front springs without any mods?

 

[Big Dave]

Charles, As i replied on the other post ,,, Definately YES a straight swop....voila 20mm lower....

 

[herbie75]

Just had a very thorough response from Andy at Promax. The main points quoted below:

"To fit all the suspension parts, estimate 5.5 hours, assuming everything goes smoothly.
We charge £79.95 (inc vat) for full geometry setup, and we normally charge per adjustment - but as its all coming apart we would charge by the hour as it would work out cheaper than per adjustment.
The only risk is the rear settings, if all the rear adjusters are seized solid as is often the case, it can take 2-4 hours to strip the rear and lubricate to put it to a point where it can be adjusted.
So - assuming all went well and the rear can be adjusted you would be looking at :
5.5 Hours to fit at £49.95 per hour plus VAT
£79.95 inc vat for geometry
1 hour for adjustments and testing.
Total: £461.44 inc vat
Worst case if the rear is seized and needs freeing off:
5.5 Hours to fit at £49.95 per hour plus VAT
£79.95 inc vat for geometry
4 hours for adjustments and freeing off rear £234.76
Total: £637.51 inc vat"

These guys seem to know what they are doing and are far more competitive on price. So although it's a bit out of my way I am going to get them to do the work. I thought 10 hours seemed a bit on the steep side!

Just need the parts to arrive now!!! []

 

[John Sims]

10 hours sounds fine to me and a fair price. All of the garages have given near enough the same figure, how much more proof do you need?

Jobs on old cars are always "interesting". Parts can come off at the turn of a spanner or after an hour of abuse.

A geometry set up can cost £250+ so the rest of the work looks very cheap based on that.

 

[herbie75]

John, please see my previous post. It was a case of finding someone who knew what the job entailed rather than a "finger in the air" approach.

Promax were quite clear on what may be involved and have included a caveat that it is an old car and may require additional time or parts. They just seemed to understand the job much better. They also asked if i wanted standard or custom geometry settings and offered a free courtesy car. Seems like a good service all round!

 

[Big Dave]

Promax know the cars well + do know what there doing.....

 

[charles.y]

Am thinking to order the 968 CS front springs and the M030 ARBs and fitted by an indy. Just wonder roughly how many hours work will it take. I have just done a geo this week and is another one needed after the springs and ARBS are fitted?

 

[zcacogp]

Charles,

Yes, you will need to re-geo after fitting new springs, and ideally should after fitting new ARB's as well.

Is there something wrong with the current springs? It is unusual to change springs and not shocks - shocks wear out in a way that springs don't, so most people change the shocks and leave the original springs (as I did).

If there is nothing wrong with it, why not enjoy the new geo and get used to driving it? (Controversial viewpoint on here, eh?!)


Oli.

 

[Suffolk944]

Can certainly vouch for Promax's geometry setting - Very happy with mine and would indeed seem bit of a bargain compared with others.

 

[charles.y]

Oli,

I replaced the front and rear shocks with standard Porsche parts last week. The springs are original therefore an upgrade to the 968 CS springs together with the 968 CS M030 ARBs. I always found the stock S2 ARBs are bit too small.

Just ordered the kits as Herbie's from Exeter Porsche for £335 incl vat and discount which is very good price.

 

[zcacogp]

Charles,

OK, didn't realise you had also changed the shocks.

Bear in mind that springs and shocks are matched - a given spring rate is necessary for a given shock damping rate and weight of car. Porsche very carefully matched the standard S2 springs to the standard S2 shocks to optomise the handling. (If the shocks are too weak for the springs, the car will be under-damped and 'bounce', which is what happens when the shocks wear out. If the shocks are too strong for the springs the car will be over-damped, which will make the handling very wooden as it will return from undulations in the road very slowly, making it odd to drive.) The advice I had from the 968 chaps was that if you are sticking with standard (or near-standard) shocks, stick with the standard springs otherwise you may end up with something that is potentially quite unpleasant.

There is a big debate over whether springs "soften" with age. The concensus I came to was that yes, they do, but only very slightly and surprisingly quickly - single-figure percentage changes in stiffness, achieved after a few tens of thousand miles, and not much after that.

On the basis of what I learned, I kept with the original springs (with Koni dampers.)

Changing the ARB's is a different idea tho', and may well be worth it. I am a bit of a fan of the concept of big ARB's with standard suspension - you get road-going softness with some decent cornering ability. If I could justify the price, I'd probably be spending £335 with Exeter OPC as well. The theory is that changing them shouldn't affect the geo either, but you may knock things out by accident. It depends upon how fussy you are!


Oli.