Barry Hart
New member
Having been impressed with the technical standard some of the comments following our posting about our 3 litre 944 turbo, and being at the stage to start another more powerful version - there are a couple of technical issues I would like to know a little more about and think somone on here may be able to offer the answers. the point has been discussed about the speed of the burn of molecules in the cylinder which has led me to think about another observation I cannot explain.
It was over 40 years ago that I was studying thermodynamics and heat engines (as we called them then) and I vaguely remember a couple of things that now interest me but not enough to answer the problem.
It relates to the power that results from burning petrol in an engine at different compression pressures and the resulting temperatures.
I seem to remember various different types of engine efficiency formula for example for - isothermal or adiabatic expansion - etc but one in particular had a formula with an integer to the power of something that linked it to the C/R.
We also used to calculate the power resulting from burning (and the emissions) from the chemical analysis of the fuel - but you know 40 odd years has made it very misty and I don't really need to go over it all again - just seek some answers or explanations.
The reason I am interested is because in all the work I have done on both two strokes and 4 strokes - it seems to me that there is a difference in the results of burning petrol that is not linear with the compression pressure before ignition (or if you like effectively the C/R).
I know for example that petrol vapour from a carburettor will burn at atmospheric pressure - but very weakly (as aged 10 I loosened the head of a villiers JDL engine that was on my dad's bench and to see what happened - how it all worked - to see the ignition that was previously hidden inside the engine - I rotated the magneto and caught the bench alight from the blue flame that spread outwards from the gap. Even more stupid was my quick answer to douse the flames with the bucket of water next to me - yes the one I had been using to wash off the petrol I had cleaned the engine parts with before re-assembling it - woof the whole shed lit up and thank goodness for the black black out curtains used to darken the windows in war time - that they still had in the corner of the shed that I managed to put the fire out with that had now spread all round the shed - and they never found out either!).
It seems from testing engines on a dyno that as the compression pressure increases - so of course does the temperature and the resulting burn starts off creating relatively low burn pressures - not very powerful. Then - as the pressure and temperature is increased there is a point reached when there is a sudden jump in the output to a new level on a graph - as if some critical point in the temperature and pressure has been reached and the resulting burn is suddenly much better. After this is seems that the improvement continues to be either liear or perhaps more exponantial than linear - up to the point of detonation.
I have proven this with two strokes from measuring air flow and making extremely high compression heads that transform an engine unable to pull the proverbial skin off a rice pudding to a reasonably powerfull one when running well outside its designed areas of good air flow dynamics, resonant exhaust frequencies etc. Just raising the C/R at this area of the engines performance transformed the resulting power. I suspect it applies to four strokes because again when the compression pressures are low (like a 911 3.2 with worn rings, the power is low until it runs in the area of the camshaft coming to life, but re-ringed - all the bottom end returns) it is just as if the compression pressures before were just below the point at which some huge leap in output takes place. Similarly (and more to the point of origin of the question) with turbos - although the flow from the compressor reaches a point where there is suddenly a rapid increase of delivery and turbo speed - creating a circle of higher exhaust pressure and higher and higher compression pressures - never the less the graphs of output are less severe that the rapid rise in torque resulting from - it seems - some critical point reached after which the burn fficiency is greatly increased.
I know (well I think I do) that too high a compression pressure can make the molecules of petrol become larger and start to precipitate out of the vapour and require some squish design to improve the mixing (hence squish bands) but it is at the lower end of this cycle I am more interested in the performance.
I just cannot finds anything on the Internet to help - so if anyone can throw some light on this - preferably what I would like to see is a graph plotting the rise in pressure after ignition of a normal fuel mixture as the compression pressure (and therefore also the temperature) rises - to see if it is a straight line or as I suspect either two straight lines with a point that jumps bigger or two curves with similar characteristics.
The answer could assist me in deciding how to build this engine we hope to answer all requirements at both ends of th e rev range - but if you can help please keep it simple!
Thanks
Baz
It was over 40 years ago that I was studying thermodynamics and heat engines (as we called them then) and I vaguely remember a couple of things that now interest me but not enough to answer the problem.
It relates to the power that results from burning petrol in an engine at different compression pressures and the resulting temperatures.
I seem to remember various different types of engine efficiency formula for example for - isothermal or adiabatic expansion - etc but one in particular had a formula with an integer to the power of something that linked it to the C/R.
We also used to calculate the power resulting from burning (and the emissions) from the chemical analysis of the fuel - but you know 40 odd years has made it very misty and I don't really need to go over it all again - just seek some answers or explanations.
The reason I am interested is because in all the work I have done on both two strokes and 4 strokes - it seems to me that there is a difference in the results of burning petrol that is not linear with the compression pressure before ignition (or if you like effectively the C/R).
I know for example that petrol vapour from a carburettor will burn at atmospheric pressure - but very weakly (as aged 10 I loosened the head of a villiers JDL engine that was on my dad's bench and to see what happened - how it all worked - to see the ignition that was previously hidden inside the engine - I rotated the magneto and caught the bench alight from the blue flame that spread outwards from the gap. Even more stupid was my quick answer to douse the flames with the bucket of water next to me - yes the one I had been using to wash off the petrol I had cleaned the engine parts with before re-assembling it - woof the whole shed lit up and thank goodness for the black black out curtains used to darken the windows in war time - that they still had in the corner of the shed that I managed to put the fire out with that had now spread all round the shed - and they never found out either!).
It seems from testing engines on a dyno that as the compression pressure increases - so of course does the temperature and the resulting burn starts off creating relatively low burn pressures - not very powerful. Then - as the pressure and temperature is increased there is a point reached when there is a sudden jump in the output to a new level on a graph - as if some critical point in the temperature and pressure has been reached and the resulting burn is suddenly much better. After this is seems that the improvement continues to be either liear or perhaps more exponantial than linear - up to the point of detonation.
I have proven this with two strokes from measuring air flow and making extremely high compression heads that transform an engine unable to pull the proverbial skin off a rice pudding to a reasonably powerfull one when running well outside its designed areas of good air flow dynamics, resonant exhaust frequencies etc. Just raising the C/R at this area of the engines performance transformed the resulting power. I suspect it applies to four strokes because again when the compression pressures are low (like a 911 3.2 with worn rings, the power is low until it runs in the area of the camshaft coming to life, but re-ringed - all the bottom end returns) it is just as if the compression pressures before were just below the point at which some huge leap in output takes place. Similarly (and more to the point of origin of the question) with turbos - although the flow from the compressor reaches a point where there is suddenly a rapid increase of delivery and turbo speed - creating a circle of higher exhaust pressure and higher and higher compression pressures - never the less the graphs of output are less severe that the rapid rise in torque resulting from - it seems - some critical point reached after which the burn fficiency is greatly increased.
I know (well I think I do) that too high a compression pressure can make the molecules of petrol become larger and start to precipitate out of the vapour and require some squish design to improve the mixing (hence squish bands) but it is at the lower end of this cycle I am more interested in the performance.
I just cannot finds anything on the Internet to help - so if anyone can throw some light on this - preferably what I would like to see is a graph plotting the rise in pressure after ignition of a normal fuel mixture as the compression pressure (and therefore also the temperature) rises - to see if it is a straight line or as I suspect either two straight lines with a point that jumps bigger or two curves with similar characteristics.
The answer could assist me in deciding how to build this engine we hope to answer all requirements at both ends of th e rev range - but if you can help please keep it simple!
Thanks
Baz