The difference between a Road & Race Car

[John Sims]

Read:-

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article2503695.ece


I know it is headed Volvo but ignor that and read the text.

including:-

"....I therefore find myself this morning hooting with derision at the current crop of so-called track-focused road cars. The Porsche GT3 RS is a classic case in point. Yes, it has a roll cage and, yes, it's jolly light. But will it corner as fast as a diesel BMW on slicks? No. Will it brake more abruptly? No."

 

[Rotorhead]

I actually like Clarkson. I read his column and books. Most of his writing is very clever and very funny.

Sometimes his analogies are spot on, but this example is way off.

I think he wanted to wind up GT3RS owners who have just spent £100k on their new toys with that throw away line.

Fact is, the GT3RS is widely acknowledged, by all the mags I've read, as one of the best road and track cars at any price (including Top Gear []).

 

[John Sims]

Granted I haven't had the pleasure of driving a GT3RS but I did race a Westfield for 5 years.

When I started I thought it would be easy to keep the car for road and race - all that changed after the first practise session. As I strove to make the car better and better on the track it got worse and worse on the road. By the end it was a liability on the road. It would dart from side to side on any undulation and a piece of gravel was liable to launch you into a ditch....but it was like driving a big go kart on the track, only more stable. And regs meant we had to maintain a 4" ground clearance and no aero package, so this wasn't some ground sucking bewinged racer.

Race tyres and road tyres are equally diametrically opposed and slicks more so.

I can't speak with any authority on a GT3RS but, noting the difference between a road going sports car and, ultimately, a racing car that was registered for the road I can't disagree with him.

 

[edh]

He seems to say that a car is no good on a track unless it has slicks - he says of the GT3 RS

"Does it work on the track? No. In the big scheme of things, not even slightly. The only way you could do that is by fitting slicks."

His usual hyperbole makes his argument much weaker. If he'd said, some road cars are rubbish on the road because they are too track focused, but great on the track, he'd have more of a point.

Granted, race cars are so much more dramatic - noise, directness, grip, but there are plenty of road cars that are good to drive on the track (even some FWD ones []).

And of course the perfect compromise is to pitch up in your 944 with another set of wheels in the back. [] Sure, I could make the 944 a better track car - lose 2-300kg, stiffen the suspension even more, and it would be a very uncomfortable road car, but with its current setup, it can do both jobs.

 

[Diver944]

Just proves that he is an 'entertainer' and cannot be taken seriously as a car person [8|]

His team have been lambasted and criticised as dangerous by so many of the usual Britcar racers on the Pistonheads forum that it's beyond belief. On average they were a full minute a lap slower than the top cars unless the Stig was driving. It's been reported that in the pits those three could be seen oafing around and playing it for laughs when there were many serious teams trying to get on and enjoy their passion. Hammond actually took out one of the top cars early on in the race by turning into him when being lapped, so months and months of preparation and £££££s went out the window.

Their average laptime over the whole race (obviously including pits, safety cars and darkness) was 3m38s. Our heroes Lali & co in the 968 were 2m51s and Fenry Firmins GT3 was 2m36. I would guess that a roadgoing GT3 on road tyres would be quicker than that idiot Clarkson []

 

[Neil Haughey]

Agreed. but back to the topic I can understand the basics of his point because like most of us from time to time I go round the loop of thinking a road car on the track is a good idea then that really a properly sorted track car is a track car only.

As an example I asked a long time ago about how stiff the springs should be as a starting point for a race prepped 944 and the answer was 4x whatever the stock rate is i.e. more then 600 Lb/inch. A 944 with springs that hard is going to be completely undriveable on the road.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

............As an example I asked a long time ago about how stiff the springs should be as a starting point for a race prepped 944 and the answer was 4x whatever the stock rate is i.e. more then 600 Lb/inch. A 944 with springs that hard is going to be completely undriveable on the road.

Exactly.

I have every confidence that a GT3 is good on the track - obviously, as they are pretty quick even when driven by complete spoons. But that is good on track for a road car.

A pure race GT3 will be so vastly different to a road/track day GT3 as to bear little or no comparison. In much the same way as we saw with the Prodrive rally cars and race DB9s - those of us that went to Prodrive a couple of years ago.

The Top Gear BMW had a welded cage, racing suspension and brakes. It should have gone around corners as fast as any Touring Car - obviously it should corner quicker than a road M3. This is the argument.

 

[sawood12]

Well he is right in what he says of course. Alot of us have seen this in aciton with Andrew S in his stock 944T with slicks and big black brakes. He trounces the field even on his soggy M030 suspension. First and foremost there is no alternative to a good driver - all the power in the world is not going to help you against a good driver - power corrupts and will only get you into trouble more quickly. Secondly rubber is the next most powerful mod, then weight.

I really enjoy JC but he does sometimes push the argument to it's extremities just to make his point with the biggest impact and that is what he's done here. Get an otherwise stock GT3RS on slicks and it would trounce that Diesel BMW from here to next year.

I think JC is actually a bit of a closet Porsche fan. Despite is obvious dislike for the brand he always gives the cars a fair hearing and usually is very complimentary of their capabilities even if it is through gritted yellow teeth. In pretty much all the road tests TG has performed the Porsche usually comes out on top. And if you take a look at the vast majority of the Porsche power lap times virtually all of them are in the wet. The 996turbo's power lap was driven in absolute torrential rain with about half an inch of standing water. If the difference between a wet and dry lap is 4second as they reckon then the 996 turbo's lap must have been worth 6 seconds. Take that off it's time and it is pretty much at the top of the pile.

Looking forward to the next series of TG though.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Well he is right in what he says of course. Alot of us have seen this in aciton with Andrew S in his stock 944T with slicks and big black brakes. He trounces the field even on his soggy M030 suspension.

D'oh - I was about to say the same thing.....

As I'm completely illiterate when it comes to track matters, it just seems obvious that someone like me turning up in a new GT-whatever will look a fool compared to an experienced racer on slicks. When dear old Mosely wanted to slow down the F1 cars dramatically he forced them to run grooved tyres.

Point is, you'd never want to drive a pure race-car on the road - Radical or Atom as an every-day car anyone?. And, even a pretty decent road car looks stupid on a track. I guess that a 944 with a set of slicks in the boot is as good a compromise as you'll get.

 

[lali]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Just proves that he is an 'entertainer' and cannot be taken seriously as a car person [8|]

His team have been lambasted and criticised as dangerous by so many of the usual Britcar racers on the Pistonheads forum that it's beyond belief. On average they were a full minute a lap slower than the top cars unless the Stig was driving. It's been reported that in the pits those three could be seen oafing around and playing it for laughs when there were many serious teams trying to get on and enjoy their passion. Hammond actually took out one of the top cars early on in the race by turning into him when being lapped, so months and months of preparation and £££££s went out the window.

Their average laptime over the whole race (obviously including pits, safety cars and darkness) was 3m38s. Our heroes Lali & co in the 968 were 2m51s and Fenry Firmins GT3 was 2m36. I would guess that a roadgoing GT3 on road tyres would be quicker than that idiot Clarkson []

Couldnt agree more...

Its very easy to make it look good on TV when youahve the comfort of being able to have as many takes as required to make it look good for the cameras. Their britcar outing showed them for the "driving gods" that they were (nt). On paper that 330D should have given the 968's a complete pasting but clearly it didnt.

Maybe he should spend some time writing the articla he should have "The difference between a road and race driver"

As for his claims on the GT3RS not being a track focused car.. I agree. Porsche wouldnt sell a single one if it were, can you imagine the City Boys having to unstrap their harnesses, climb out of a FIXED wrap around seat over a dorr "X" bar without scuffing their Oliver Sweeneys and crumpling the silk on their shirts, every time they stopped for petrol. Not forgettting my personal favorite of getting yourself strapped back in and THEN realising your keys are still in your pocket!!

 

[Hilux]

Not forgettting my personal favorite of getting yourself strapped back in and THEN realising your keys are still in your pocket!!

Classic..........................[]

Been there, done that, been tooted and glared at [8|][8|][8|]

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Just proves that he is an 'entertainer' and cannot be taken seriously as a car person [8|]

And that, I think, is the argument in a nutshell.

Clarkson is an entertainer who happens to talk about cars. He is witty and engaging, and easy to watch. His books cover cars (mainly), but also boats and trains. They are all covered in a very similar style - huge hyperbole, stupid comparisons and writers licence. Entertaining and amusing, albeit a little lightweight.

If he was serious about cars he would have several different championships behind him and take the whole matter much more seriously. He would also be able to drive. Look at Tiff Needell. Nice enough bloke, but not a 'personality' in any way shape or form. Imagine him presenting the current incarnation of 'Top Gear'. It wouldn't work. BUT he knows his stuff when it comes to cars, and is (reputed to be) a seriously top-drawer driver.

Put it another way. How many people on here would make a good TV presenter? Any hand, anywhere? No, I didn't think so. How many people on here would like to have a shot a semi-pro driving somewhere? <Here I get knocked down in the stampede.>


Oli.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp
Put it another way. How many people on here would make a good TV presenter?

At least I have the looks for it [&:]

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Diver944
At least I have the looks for it [&:]

Ah yes .... "A good face for radio", I think the saying goes ...


Oli.

 

[MarkK]

With race Brake pads,track geometery,cup tyres a GT3RS is as quick as lots of "real" race cars- period,then you can drive home and listen to your ipod in airconditioned comfort,its for people that don't want to tow a race car and spend alot of time on trackdays- on this occasion he is talking rubbish,i really like watching his programme but i take everything he says with a pinch of salt...