Top end re-build

[Steve Brookes]

I've just started on the long and slippery road of finding my first 964 and have been doing some research on what to look out for. John's 964 web has of course been very useful[]. To me, finding one with high miles that has had most (if not all) of the common 964 niggles attended to is the way to go. Looking at the descriptions of a number of cars for sale has raised a few questions that I hope you can help me with:

1. Top end rebuild - what has been specifically done? My guess is new valves, heads skimmed and new liners and maybe work on the camshafts. Please enlighten me.
2. New tin work? Is this the heat shield between the engine and the rear bumper (I've only seen one engine in the flesh so far [8D]).
3. Distributor (ozone) breather pipe - is this the one that you see entering the middle of the air intake?
4. If I get a tiptronic this presumably means I don't have to worry about the dual mass flywheel problem that affected early manual cars?
5. 150,000 mile cars that have all the work above done - are they likely to need it all doing again come 200,000 miles?

TIA []

Oh, and I've now been taken out for the first time in a 964 and loved every second of it![]

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Steven,

You have raised an interesting set of questions - some of which may not have clear cut answers.

As far as the top end rebuild is concerned, the question of "what gas been done" is likely to be "whatever it needed". The major reason for top end rebuilds to be done is a loss of compression caused by worn valves and valve seats and/or high oil consumption due to worn valve guides. There are many top end rebuilds done for no better reason that the owner felt it needed it or some enthusiastic mechanic suggested it would be a good idea. Heads are invariably NOT skimmed although some additional machining to the ealier heads to accomodate the head seals is often done, although this does necessitate chnaging the cylinders for the later type - and that starts to get expensive. The cylinders of the flat-6 engine do not use liners. Camshafts can experience lobe wear and may need chnaging although this isn't usually part of a top end rebuild although if necessary it would be an ideal time to do it.

The tin work you refer to consists of a number of protective parts - some to prevent heat transfer, some just to insulate and protect form the outside world. Most parts are quite expensive to replace.

The distributor vent was added some time in the early history of the 964 to prevent the ozone build-up in the distributor destroying the secondary distributor drive belt. It consists of a pipe from the rear blower plenum to the body of the primary distributor. There should be 2 pipes in total - 1 goes to the rear light cluster, the other to the distributor. Some, where the vent kit has been fitted, use a T piece in a single pipe to split between the rear light cluster and the distributor - hence only 1 pipe from the blower plenum.

Your assumption about the tip cars (C2 only) and the dual mass flywheel is correct. Also note that the 1989 C4 doesn't have a dual mass flywheel either.

Once a car has had a top end rebuild it should be good for at least another 100,000 miles - the bottom end is reckoned to be pretty sturdy although I have seen mention of some instances of oil starvation on the main bearings - often caused by careless mechanics using too much sealing compound when rebuilding.

Bear in mind that these cars are now anything up to 18 years old and other parts wear out too.

Mine is rapidly closing in on it's 18th birthday - but it still makes me smile every time I drive it!!!

Good luck with your search.

Regards

Dave

 

[Steve Brookes]

Invaluable feedback Dave. Thankyou.

It's very interesting what you say about the decision to 'top end rebuild'. I was slowly been persuaded by the adverts I've seen, into thinking that it was a must for all these cars to have this treatment once they reached the 100K miles mark. So maybe I shouldn't worry too much about 70 to 90K milers coming up for re-build if they've been maintained properly.

I'm going into this with my eyes wide open. Almost every 'for sale' description I read lists huge amounts of money that has been spent on repairing the car. Therefore if the previous owner has spent a lot, I can't see why I should be any different when I buy it. Hence I've set myself a budget for the car and set aside a slush fund that I'll need to maintain/repair/upgrade it. Fortunately there are good independents round here with both the experience and resources to do a good job at a reasonable cost.

What I do find strange though are owners that have spent thousands on recent repairs and then go and sell it![&:]

Another question - many cars are advertised with de-cat systems. I'm sure they sound great but will they make the car too loud for trackdays?

 

[38F3E1]

If the person who does the PPI for you is knowledgeble in 911s they should be able to give you an indication of whether a top end rebuild is due. Compression and leakdown tests will reveal a lot as can any smoke in the exhaust on overrun etc. They should also be able to tell you if any leaks are occuring from the cylinder heads and if there are any crank or barrel oil leaks which can be expensive to fix.

For any claimed rebuilds you will want to see the bill for the work which should give a list of the parts plus labour. As had been said before 'top end rebuild' can mean anything.

As for typical mileage for top and bottom end rebuilds there are many opinions. Reading buyers guides and phoning around some of the better known independents is a good way to know what to expect.

The 964 is a great car so worth the effort in finding a good one.

Ian.

 

[964rh]

Steve

When I was looking for a car, a rebuild was fairly high up there on my list of things I wanted.
Nothing else was mind, wasn't bothered about 2 or 4, colour, gearbox (all tho' glad I got a manual)

The main reason for wanting a rebuilt engine was, I was buying with inheritance and couldn't look at getting one done myself. As Dave said a top end rebuild is supposedly good for 100k and I thought I may have been bored with teh car by then and get rid if it needed another.
However, the price I paid wasn't that highly inflated by the £8k the previous owner paid for engine/suspension work just 5k before I bought it and I think most people get rid then just to get rid and not have anymore major bills.
Maintenance on my 964 has not cost me as much as I thought, normal servicing (6k and 12k) for the past two years come to around £600, bill of around £600 for some ignition issues last year and everything else (god knows?!?!?) was because of things I wanted to do. (Upgrade brakes for track,track tyres, harnesses, radio, speakers, lowering etc) more than a Mondeo but not as much as a ferrari!
A de-cat with both silencers will allow you on most circuits in the UK (round about 96-98db) a decat with g pipe forget it (108db ish) decat with primary bypass (102-105db) I got and stayed on Donnington, snetterton and a few others without any issues.

As Ian said a great car, most have had the dmf, heads, blah, blah sorted by know. Get a good one and you'll love it.
My 964 is prob. the only Porsche I'll own, and I'll be damn proud to say I've had a 964.

Rob

 

[colin129]

Every time I read about the 964 I get nervous, seems to be sooooooooooo much to go wrong and it all seems to cost £000's to sort out.

I'm getting used to the increased costs of my 944S2, now it is over 16 years old, but it is starting to smart!! I would hate to be be in a position where I couldn't afford to fix my car, so I can see why the original post queries the top end re-build, an £8K bill would certainly be out of the question for me, although I realise £4K to £5K would probably be nearer the mark, which is still 2-3 times my current maintenance bill per year.

Do I take the plunge, and dam the expense, I could always put the Mrs on the streets after all, or is this just 'healthy' scare mongering and if I find a properly looked after example, with a sheath of bills and the top end rebuild already carried out by a reputable independent I should be able to maintain it for similiar money to the S2.

Help me!!

(Serves me right, ever since I was given a lift in a 964 at last year's Le Mans I have kind of hankered after one.)

 

[Steve Brookes]

I know that the sensible thing to do if I want a weekend/trips away/trackday car is to go and buy myself a 968 or similar. It'll be easier to drive, more practical, cost less to maintain and save me a few K on the initial purchase price. But I am not that sensible. The 964 just ticks all the boxes for me - it looks fabulous, it goes pretty quick, it's a lovely place to be in and it sounds blooming awesome[].

Saying that and as said above I'm keeping money back for the bills, will have a hack to drive in the bad weather and if needs to be off the road and I will be able to borrow back the boxster from the wife if I need it (but don't tell her it'll be for a track day[]).

With care and guidance I think there is every chance that I can find a good '64. I would go as far to say that right now is as good a time as any because some cars have been really sorted out.

Sorry Colin, I have not been any help at all in disuadeing you to get one[8D]. We must meet up when we've both got our new steeds[]

 

[Fen]

There's nothing sensible about a 968; it's a 944 S2 at twice the price.

Anyhow, as you know there is no comparison between driving a 944/968 and a 911. A 944 S2 or Turbo would almost certainly be faster round a track in most mortal's hands, but not the same experience (I still have a Turbo as a track car though).

In terms of rebuilds I bought my car with 133k and no rebuild, expecting to have to get one done soon (and priced to reflect that). It has a clean bill of health from my indie however and he says it goes quite well for a 964, so no rebuild on the cards yet.

I have a cat bypass and G-Pipe and 108dB is in my car's dreams. 116dB was the measurement I got, albeit that it wasn't in an ideal location so I'll try to get a better one. I think I'll buy another acorn silencer for track use while my 944 is borked as with the decat and 2 silencers it was not that noisy, even with the acorn one rattling and starting to fail.

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: rob hounslow
A de-cat with both silencers will allow you on most circuits in the UK (round about 96-98db) a decat with g pipe forget it (108db ish) decat with primary bypass (102-105db) I got and stayed on Donnington, snetterton and a few others without any issues.

As Ian said a great car, most have had the dmf, heads, blah, blah sorted by know. Get a good one and you'll love it.
My 964 is prob. the only Porsche I'll own, and I'll be damn proud to say I've had a 964.

Rob

Rob, I've seen your posts in the 'Oulton RS day' topic in the 964RS section but I'm not certain if you've booked on yet? I'll be there watching and scrounging a few passenger laps. If you're there, I'll look you up to see if I can hitch a lift at some point[].

 

[964rh]

Steve

Unfortunately, I'm not going now.

I promised my self that I would this year and when payday arrived last week was just about to book and found out that the pooch needs a fairly serious operation (£1700) that has taken all the money as a certain pet insurance company have managed to welch out on paying. (b*sta*ds).
I am deffo. going to Spa and the Ring towards the end of may tho', your more than welcome to jump in there or anywhere else I may be.

Rob

 

[964rh]

ORIGINAL: Fen
I have a cat bypass and G-Pipe and 108dB is in my car's dreams. 116dB was the measurement I got, albeit that it wasn't in an ideal location so I'll try to get a better one. I think I'll buy another acorn silencer for track use while my 944 is borked as with the decat and 2 silencers it was not that noisy, even with the acorn one rattling and starting to fail.

Fen

Mine was tested at an airfield at 108db so location may have had something to do with the 116db (That's loud!!) (did get 105db with teh same setup at 3000 rpm at a curborough sprint, cheating I know[] )
I have read about some issues with bolt on silencers for track use (cannot remember where tho') but some people use them on here with no issues. may be worth checking out!

Rob

 

[Steve Brookes]

Sorry to hear about the pooch Rob and therefore that you can't make the RS day. I've already booked a ride in Jason's RS which I'm really looking forward to [] and there looks like there should be a couple of standard 964s there that I'll see if the owners will trade a lift for a cuppa!

 

[Steve Brookes]

I've just come across a car that doesn't mention any major engine work and says that it's only done 14,000 miles in the last 6 years. It's used as a second car but a car standing around more than it is driven would concern me more than one that has done high miles. Any thoughts?

 

[colin129]

ORIGINAL: brksy16

I've just come across a car that doesn't mention any major engine work and says that it's only done 14,000 miles in the last 6 years. It's used as a second car but a car standing around more than it is driven would concern me more than one that has done high miles. Any thoughts?

I think I saw that one too, on Autotrader.co.uk. I guess you would have to go and see. They do say that our cars need to be driven, but one of the guys I go down to Le Mans with has a Speedster that he, almost literally, only uses for Le Mans and spends the rest of the time 'at rest'.

Don't worry about getting into a bidding war with me over this car though, I don't expect to be in a position to buy until the summer.

 

[Steve Brookes]

Yes Colin that's the one. If it turns out to be a good car then the price is very attractive. I may have to make some further enquiries to see if it's worth a 300 mile round trip for a viewing. I'll get one before the summer then leave the field open to you[].

 

[Gordon Attar]

ORIGINAL: rob hounslow
When I was looking for a car, a rebuild was fairly high up there on my list of things I wanted.
Nothing else was mind, wasn't bothered about 2 or 4, colour, gearbox (all tho' glad I got a manual)

Maintenance on my 964 has not cost me as much as I thought, normal servicing (6k and 12k) for the past two years come to around £600, bill of around £600 for some ignition issues last year and everything else (god knows?!?!?) was because of things I wanted to do.

Very much the same experience average £800/year maintenance inc tyres, no rebuild c£3k from Northways if req'd), go for condition and history, flywheels should no longer be an issue, you wont regret it.

 

[Alexander_Drobik]

Interesting thread - I think our cars are getting to an age that they need some work - which after it is done settles the cars back for many years of lower cost motoring. But the work has to be done - an engine of 75k miles plus will be worn, tin ware over 10 years old will have rust, and so on. And you will never have access to cheap parts and labour - if you are not happy putting £2k/year away then a 964 is not for you - sure some folks have the car, run it 2 -3 years, and sell it before bills arrive - but someone always has to pay the piper. If you do - you have one of the great cars you can drive. Enjoy and spend!

 

[Steve Brookes]

Thanks for all the replies. I've found a top end rebuilt car that I really like the sound of will be looking it over next week. It's not the colour I was originally thinking of but I thought it was best to take heed of the 'buy on condition' advice I've been getting from you all. But it's still a very nice colour[].

 

[Porker993]

[8|] My 1989 964 C4 had well over 110,000 miles on it when I sold it - no mention of a top end rebuild being necessary. Same thing with the 993 - people worry about them needing a top end rebuild due to posts on Renn List etc., but my indie claims they are extremely rare. Maybe it's something to do with different temperatures/driving styles in the US and Europe.

 

[38F3E1]

There is no doubt that people in the US are forced to have top end rebuilds earlier than over here due to the extra gadgets fitted to their cars for clean air reasons and the much stricter MOT requirements. We can drive around in cars that would fail US emissions without a problem. Worse on the US 993s than 964s.

The best way to know if your car needs it is commpression and leakdown tests plus oil usage.