Torsion bar delete .
- Thread starter pauly
- Start date
I'm giving some serious thought to torsion bar delete as my torsion bar bushes seem to be shot and replacing them looks like a lot of agro. If you are doing a job it always seems less painful if it includes incorporate an upgrade. [
]
I would be interested in any details anyone can come up with.
]I would be interested in any details anyone can come up with.
I don't know of anyone that has deleted the torsion bars and just used coil overs whilst retaining the original parts. Pazzer who used to frequent the 968 part of this forum had a Kolken? rear delete on his 968. He has now sold this car on to Kev who posts on here. From what I gather the car is very stable and has excellent traction where some of us mere torsion bar mortals suffer.
John, a cheaper upgrade is to fit much better bushes all around on the rear, the difference is worth it.
John, a cheaper upgrade is to fit much better bushes all around on the rear, the difference is worth it.
sawood12
New member
I can't think of the chaps name now but he removed the TB's on his S2 race car but replaced them as he reckoned it worked better with them. There are some who have removed on street cars and race cars in the states with seemingly no issues. I guess it is upto you as to if you prefer the feel of the car without. The only reasons why you'd do it are to save weight (but not that much) and to be able to change the rear ride height - though why would you want to do that on a street car. The chap I refer to with the S2 race car reckoned he could adjust the rear ride height with TB's installed in around 20mins. He drilled holes in the side of his sills to enable access to the ends of the axel.
The Kokeln solution is a complete custom built rear axel with swing arms. It is very expensive so you'd need to be very keen to go that route.
http://www.kokeln.com/rear_suspension_kit.php
The Kokeln solution is a complete custom built rear axel with swing arms. It is very expensive so you'd need to be very keen to go that route.
http://www.kokeln.com/rear_suspension_kit.php
Neil Haughey
New member
I am sure one of the PCGB race cars I looked at last year had this done, surprised me because I thought the rules asked for standard panels except for front wings and bonnet. Tempted to do the same on my S2 rennsport projekt.
Just found loads of pics on here of a different PCGB race car with the same mod
http://www.944racer.com/oulton_park/photos/
Big Dave
New member
Why delete the T bars.????
They do a fine job..
The weight distribution is in the correct area, ie, VERY low...
If you have a 944 + its a track biased car then do the hole cut thing in the side cills, to lower it...
All the UK Race Porsche 944,s etc that i know of , run with the bars in. They have to for the regs...
Its not that hard a job to re-index, its just been "talked" up a lot , that its "supposed" to be hard. Yes its a long winded job.. + it helps to have the car on a 2 post ramp, But its not hard to do...
The chap that had the Kokeln rear delete kit.[In his 968]. Had a lot of "fun" getting it to work correctly. In fact it was quite a handfull on track . Im not too sure about the getting the power down bit. I know that it "wagged" its tail an awfull lot under heavy braking...[8|][8|] Oh it cost FORTUNES.. In my eyes not worth the metal....
Your far better off spending the money on some driver training if you want to go quicker....[ Thats not to say you arent a good driver now.] But ive yet to meet any race driver that thinks hes fast enough...[][][][]
They do a fine job..
The weight distribution is in the correct area, ie, VERY low...
If you have a 944 + its a track biased car then do the hole cut thing in the side cills, to lower it...
All the UK Race Porsche 944,s etc that i know of , run with the bars in. They have to for the regs...
Its not that hard a job to re-index, its just been "talked" up a lot , that its "supposed" to be hard. Yes its a long winded job.. + it helps to have the car on a 2 post ramp, But its not hard to do...
The chap that had the Kokeln rear delete kit.[In his 968]. Had a lot of "fun" getting it to work correctly. In fact it was quite a handfull on track . Im not too sure about the getting the power down bit. I know that it "wagged" its tail an awfull lot under heavy braking...[8|][8|] Oh it cost FORTUNES.. In my eyes not worth the metal....
Your far better off spending the money on some driver training if you want to go quicker....[ Thats not to say you arent a good driver now.] But ive yet to meet any race driver that thinks hes fast enough...[
][][][]
Seemingly IRO $2,400 [
] Even when we had a good exchange rate that would be ridiculous. We'll not be doing that then.I've not been that taken with Kokeln products in the past any way. They seem to almost but not quite fit the way you would want nine times out of ten. £2K+ (+coil overs, bushes and set up) is a lot to spend on something that isn't exactly right.
This was my other consideration:-
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bushings/944bushings.htm
Comments?
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bushings/944bushings.htm
Comments?
I have them John. I can't state with authority that they are a huge improvement, nor can I say they're not. haha, sorry to seem foggy, however I had them put in at the same time as lots of other bits so it's too hard to say what they really are like. They do need a bit of attention now and then but access for grease is fine. I would say that by design they're superior to the standard rubber bushes and worth making the leap of faith. Put it this way, I wouldn't take mine out.
Big Dave
New member
John.
Yes i have those fitted aswell. Great upgrade..
But like Pat, i fitted a lot of solid bushings at the same time, so cant realy comment on the E racing ones on there own...
Re torsion bar stiffness.
The 968 ones are the thickest , ie stiffest you can , unless you go aftermarket...[ PS i do have a pair of 68 ones "spare".]....[][]
Yes i have those fitted aswell. Great upgrade..
But like Pat, i fitted a lot of solid bushings at the same time, so cant realy comment on the E racing ones on there own...
Re torsion bar stiffness.
The 968 ones are the thickest , ie stiffest you can , unless you go aftermarket...[ PS i do have a pair of 68 ones "spare".]....[
][]
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
We fitted them to mine too, but like Patrick this was done with loads of other stuff so I haven't the foggiest what they do in isolation. Really nice piece of engineering though []
]Just had a look at your website Peter. Nice car, how do you find the innovate kit. Ive just picked up a g3 gauge and wideband controller.I hope to use it to tune my dads tr4 and help me develop my MAF converter. This leads me to my second question, how much of a difference did you get from the scivision kit?
ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK
Re torsion bar stiffness.
The 968 ones are the thickest , ie stiffest you can , unless you go aftermarket...[ PS i do have a pair of 68 ones "spare".]....[
I thought all the late ones are the same dia, CS M030 had the additional springs on the rear shocks to stiffen them up ?.
I don't have Elephant bushes, but I did fit Weltmeister "mouse" (because of the squeaking) ones. Also done along with loads of other changes and didn't think I could isolate the benefit, but Neil H has the same as me and recently described positivity of the rear end - as absence of previous tendecy to rear-steer I think he described it as - which I have to say with hindsight I agree on, and that in all probability is due to improved bushing. I'd have fitted ER ones if I had known about them in time. I can only assume the TBs add to that as they must share some of the load of resiting torsional forces acting to move the arm against the beam in a plane other than allowed by rotation within the bush.
It is fun to fit them, or more correctly to remove the originals which are pretty much Vulcanised on rather than inserted. I'd recommend doing as I did; remove the rear beam, strip and remove the bushes, paint the parts, reassemble with new bushes and reindexed torsions, spot that the mounting brakets are failing and buy news ones, curse that they cost about 250 notes + vat when you order them (and are Porsche only) and then reassemble. I also replaced the fuel and brake lines with genuine at the time. I'd estimate my rear axle refurb cost in excess of a Grand to do all the "while you're in there" stuff...
It is fun to fit them, or more correctly to remove the originals which are pretty much Vulcanised on rather than inserted. I'd recommend doing as I did; remove the rear beam, strip and remove the bushes, paint the parts, reassemble with new bushes and reindexed torsions, spot that the mounting brakets are failing and buy news ones, curse that they cost about 250 notes + vat when you order them (and are Porsche only) and then reassemble. I also replaced the fuel and brake lines with genuine at the time. I'd estimate my rear axle refurb cost in excess of a Grand to do all the "while you're in there" stuff...
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Thanks Tom. I didn't get the Innovate installed for long before it went into the bodyshop so hadn't sorted out some teething troubles (this was with the logging side and not the Wideband). It's definately an impressive bit of kit if a little over complicated.
The Scivision made no improvement in power when fitted although rolling road remapping did find some gains but how much where attributable to the maf is debatable. Purely look at the dyno plots tells you very little about it though, the throttle response and resulting improvement in driveability is a major plus and worth the price for this alone. If I was doing it again I think I'd go with the Vitesse system as it has more potential, but if you're not going mad with mods then it's fine.
I also have the Innovate kit and I like it also. like Peter I didn't get the logging side set up before my car went off the road, but the wideband part was good. My advice would be to wire the heater for the sensor through the fuel pump circuit though as with mine (through the ignition) it's a pain to remember to turn it off if the ignition is on but the engine not running (which happens more than you think when you are in the workshop at least) and equally you have to remember to turn it back on when you start the engine. Apparently heater and no engine is bad for the sensor and engine and no heater lets it get a build up of dirt making it less accurate. I had to buy a replacement sensor for mine, probably as the heater burned it out. Just a Bosh part and easy to find, but cost about a ton that I didn't really need/want to have to spend.
Last thing to consider is that (for a Turbo at least) you can't use the OE location as it's not far enough from the header and hence too hot. I can't see why that would be different for an NA car but Peter might be able to tell you different.
Last thing to consider is that (for a Turbo at least) you can't use the OE location as it's not far enough from the header and hence too hot. I can't see why that would be different for an NA car but Peter might be able to tell you different.
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
