Track day car dilema.?????

Big Dave · Nov 6, 2004

Ok race / track day fans.....

Im in a bit of a dilema...

968 or 944S2 or even a 944TurboS....?????

Which would you choose for a Track day weapon???

Is the 968 that much better than a 944S2 /TurboS ??????

I currently have a 968 cab , have had a 968 Sport which i used on track [ which was a good car + had loads of fun with] ...... now I am on the hunt for a Proper track toy..
IE strip out , cage ,the full works,,

Ps take into account of costs , it would cost more to "do" a 968 .

Just after a generall concensus
Ta
Dave W.

John Sims · Nov 6, 2004

For a track car I would suggest that a late 944 Turbo must be your best option - particularly if you can find one with M030.

Purchase cost alone means that you will have less value of car to damage in the event of a shunt. Being far more prolific the 944 provides a more readilly available spares pool than a rarer 968. Also, people aren't keen on buying second hand track cars, so you would lose much more on resale with a 968.

See this months 911&PW for an interesting comparison between the two cars - their conclusion was on the lines of the 968 looks better and is rarer than a 944 it is therefor worth twice the value of a late 944. Looks aren't an issue for a track car and rarety is a distinct disadvantage.

The turbo offers the potential for much higher levels of tune and with M030 (and £300 of 968CS anti roll bars) is dynamically identical to a 968CS.

Is there realy a choice? [

]

Diver944 · Nov 6, 2004

.....and as you are going to strip and cage it you could be down to 1100 kilos like the Porsche Cup cars.

Drop £3k of mods into the engine and you'll be hitting 400bhp, and another £2k for some rock hard springs/shocks (you'll know this from the 968, they are all interchangeable). Not much short of a Radical or XTR4 will be able to keep up (if you can drive the damn beast [

] ) All for a total outlay of under £13k including the donor car

lali · Nov 6, 2004

My brother has just picked up a 968 sport and along with my 944s2 we'll be at donnington next weekend so if you can hold off the purchase until after that I'll let you know what the difference is...

Fen · Nov 6, 2004

As said beofre there is no contest. I really don't get why anyone would pay much premium for a 968. It's essentially a very slightly newer (but still old enough that condition is much more important than age) 944S2 with styling changes (which are not universally considered an improvement - personally I prefer the 968 rear but think the front is somewhat challenging for example), a little more power and a 6 speed 'box. Worth more? Probably, but something like 25% more, not 80% more like they go for.

Factor in that the 944T is a far better performance car than the S2 or any 968 variant but still costs no more than 65% of the price of a comparable 968 and it's a no-brainer.

Yoda · Nov 6, 2004

If you are looking for an out and out track car you may want to consider an ex race car. Usually pretty cheap and with all the right mods. Some are never going to be road legal but there are cars that can be converted for very little money. A good friend of mine bought an ex race 944 for just over GBP5k. Terrible on road but great fun on track and very fast for the money.

Its probably a good time to buy one too, between race seasons.

Big Dave · Nov 6, 2004

So far
Thanks for the input.....

Its looking like most of you would opt for a 944TS...

Lali
When are you going to Donington??? 21st nov?????
If so im going to spectate + hopefully get a ride in my m8ts Cs , so if any other 968 / 944/S2/TS ,s are there itd be a great day for comparison.......

Dave W.

lali · Nov 7, 2004

Im booked for the 14th at the mo... I am hoping to do Bedford on the 20th and im pretty sure that passport control ( the wife ) wont issue me with 2 Visas for the same weekend.. having said that if I like the way the car goes next week then I might do the 21st as well

Melv · Nov 7, 2004

968 Clubsport.....if you can find one!!

Mel

Diver944 · Nov 7, 2004

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

Its looking like most of you would opt for a 944TS...

Not that we are biased [

]

I do prefer the updated looks of the 968 (apart from the cills) and remember that any cheap 944 track car can be made even lighter by adding the GRP 968 body panels that www.clubautosport.co.uk

If the quality were really top notch (and apparently it's not) then I'd love to turn my car into a Maritime Blue 968 RS Turbo lookalike as I think the RS is absolutely drop dead gorgeous [8D]

........apart from those cills

Fen · Nov 7, 2004

ORIGINAL: Melv

968 Clubsport.....if you can find one!!

Mel

Why? It's just a 944 S2 with M030 suspension (retrofittable) and 6-speed 'box (not worth much IMO but retrofittable also if you really care) and slightly more power. It's only 60kg or so lighter and I took that much plus more out of my Turbo in a day by ditching all the stuff the CS doesn't have (seats, rear wiper, electric mirrors etc.). My Turbo had very slightly more power still straight out of the box and if you go form the mods Slim et al have then for £1k you cab be running 310bhp - an icrease of over 20% on the 968 CS figure. By contrast the 968 engine is all but un-tunable for more go.

As I said above it's a no-brainer IMO.

Big Dave · Nov 7, 2004

OK folks

Heres another conundrum for ya???

Would you get a GOOD 944S2 + fit a supercharger kit to it along with the usuall suspension + brake bits.[Which i already have,susp + brakes that is.]

Im not too keen on turbos , Ive had a couple of them + am not too keen on the old turbo lag...[ Calibra T + Nissan 200SXT ]..
Unless you chaps know how to get rid of it??????

Dave W.

Kevin Cooke · Nov 7, 2004

Dave,

Learn to left foot brake and spool up the turbo before the apex.

Jochen Mass always seemed to manage this trick even in Moby Dick

Regards

Diver944 · Nov 7, 2004

I would dearly love to try the 9M supercharger kit and I hope to bolt one to my S2 one day (in the distant future), but from a fiscal point of view a good S2 would be approx £2k cheaper to buy than a good Turbo. Then when you add the £6k supercharger you have a 350bhp car. You could get the Turbo to that level with less than £2k spent so still be £2k better off than the S2 so here comes the trick suspension [

]

If you are buying a pure track toy than lag really isn't an issue as when you are 'going for it' there isn't any because you are always on the boost. Above 3000 rpm you have full boost, and from 2000rpm it is building. On the road, a 944T in good condition is not too laggy, and it can be improved with a proper wastegate, replacing the airflow meter with a MAF or MAP kit, a less restrictive exhaust, and also a freer flowing intercooler and finally a hybrid turbocharger (basically these are all the things that you change to get to the 350-400bhp level)

Fen · Nov 7, 2004

With a MAF, a decent wastegate, a big decat exhaust and a custom remap my Turbo had very little latency. Obviously it pulled harder from 3,000 rpm on but it was far from dead below that. In contrast an S2 doesn't pick up it's skirts fully until 4k rpm. I appreciate the supercharger would maybe change that, but don't they run out of puff at the top end? As Paul implies the top end is where you will need it more on track and even if a Turbo gets weak up there you're just £900 away from a bigger blower.

John Sims · Nov 7, 2004

968 Clubsport.....if you can find one!!

Mel

No good Mel. You can't just come out with these comments without some justification.

I might just as well say "Football is an interesting sport" or "911's have their engine in the wrong place." In retrospect the latter is a bad example as you can make that comment without justification.

Big Dave · Nov 8, 2004

Fen
I see in your sig that you are doing a 944cs track car???
Exactly What are you doing to it??????

Dave W.

Fen · Nov 8, 2004

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

Fen
I see in your sig that you are doing a 944cs track car???
Exactly What are you doing to it??????

Dave W.

Currently just destroying it. It started out as a '90 944 Turbo (SE in some parlance) with the typical leather, air-con etc. and a bridge spoiler / Sachs suspension that was my daily driver until just under 3 years ago. So far I have removed the seats in favour of a single Corbeau Sprint and also the central locking and rear wiper. I have also fitted "keep fit" windows in place of electrics, a cable release for the tailgate and 968CS door mirrors without motors.

Plans upcoming are a non-assisted steering rack, removing the air-con gubbins and deleting the front fog/driving lamps in favour of a parking light behind a clear indicator lense and brake-cooling ducts. More far-fetched ideas are replacing the roof skin with a non-sunroof one, lightweight tailgate glass and some fibreglass panels.

First though the engine has to go back in. It's having a complete rebuild with a few reliabilty mods internally such as a Cometic head gasket and Raceware head studs then it will go back with the previous spec of Autothority MAF, TiAL wastegate, H&S decat system and custom ECU map by Bob Watson. In that tune it made "comfortably over 300bhp" with virtually no turbo latency and it can run like that to prove it isn't a grenade before getting a bigger Turbo and injectors. the engine rebuild is planned for December when my fettler of choice expects to be quiet and will appreciate having something to tinker with.

I haven't decided exactly what to do with the chassis - probably M030 with the current "reasonably big black" brakes to see how it gets on for a start since I hope it's going to be in excess of 100kg lighter than stock. I have a set of genuine 17" Cup 1 wheels to pick up this week for track work and some bling 18" Cup 2 replicas for the road.

944Turbo · Nov 8, 2004

EVO 'The Knowledge' has the following weights S2 1312kg 944T 1399kg 968cs 1335kg. I would imagine adding a supercharger to either the 968 or the S2 would oush the weight close to the turbo (possibly more with the 968 as it seems to be heavier)

The late Turbo 88on has LSD, hardened 1st and 2nd gears, gearbox cooler, 928S4 brakes (reasonably big blacks[

] ) Longer gearing overall than the S2 (not sure if its longer overall than the 968) but with some engine mods the turbo 5 speed should see you over 170.

Most 968's even CS's do not have an LSD, and I have heard rumours it is not as strong.

There are many more options to tuning the 944T and it can be done in stages to spread the budget if you desire.

Where did Porsche look when they built the 968 Turbo?

I only have 323bhp 329lb/ft and relatively standard suspension - I am passing GT3's and 360's on trackdays.

Tony

John Sims · Nov 8, 2004

Steady Guys, if we make to good a case for the 944T as a track day car they will become more desirable and spares will go up in price. Also, it will become even more difficult to work out who is who.

This being the case, please note:-

944T (951?) is a rubbish track day car car. Don't get one. Get a 968, or anything else, but don't touch the 951.[]