Tuning!

[SimonExtreme]

OK. I know I have only had the car 5 minutes but it is clear to be that the current 292bhp and 260lbs/ft of torque just aren't enough []. So where do we go from here?

As I see it, the limiting factor with my current set up is that the injectors are only good for 300bhp and the ECU won't handle bigger injectors. It seems that the "established" option is to fit bigger injectors and fit a Motec ECU. The next limit seems to be the amount of air you can get in and out and that puts a limit at about 325bhp and 300 lbs/ft.

I don't want to open up an engine which has been leak tested and shown to be very good as well as not using/losing any oil (touch wood). I don't want to get a blower either. So, is 325 bhp the max? Is there any other option to Motec?

 

[Andy Tims]

Adrian Palmer has something like 400bhp from his 964RS, but he's spent a few quid to say the least. I think most of it with Colin Belton.

 

[RSR]

If you're talking about 9M's Motec then great. Be careful because it's not as easy as bolting on a Motec and injectors. You need to map it properly.

9M Motec = £4000 ish = 320 bhp ish. Bolt on.
9M Motec + 1 = £8000 ish = 340 bhp ish. Bolt on + head work.

Any more horses than this and it really starts to get expensive for a normally aspirated solution and forced induction doesn't fit with the character of the RS in my opinion.

So I would continue the RS philosophy in the first place to make an RS Plus. I.e. a bit more power and a bit less weight will take it to the next level. Take the doors off and leave them in the garage. Feel just like driving a Caterham. [] Then take all the glass out and put cling film in place. You'll get there in the end, and take those bloody cup holders out Simon.

 

[SimonExtreme]

I have decided that withthe condition of my engine being so good (famous last words) it isn't a great idea to start stripping it down (leak tested and worst cylinder was 4%!). Although I wouldn't map it myself, I have a fair amount of experience with mappable ECU's and the MOTEC is the Daddy! I am suprised that there aren't others around to give it competition in the Porsche world. In rallying, Motec has significant competition from companies like GEMS and Autronics who don't do anything for Porsches.

To me the suprises are where the bottlnecks are or put another way, how efficient the standard car appears to be. I am already working on a few ideas of how to squeeze a little more out of a standard engine but I want to make sure I have covered everything already tried and that I understand what is happening.

I totally agree about forced induction. While I think that the supercharger route is interesting, it does cahnge the character of the car significantly. You might as well start again, slam in a highly tuned turbo engine off a later car and then you end up with a car thats very quick and handles well (?) but its not really an RS any more.

I also don't like the idea of altering the engine size although I might have to admit defeat in the end and look at cams and head work.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

I am suprised that there aren't others around to give it competition in the Porsche world. In rallying, Motec has significant competition from companies like GEMS and Autronics who don't do anything for Porsches.

You can use any of the competition to Motec with Porsche engines. There is nothing bespoke about Motec in a Porsche context. 9M, Bob Watson and maybe others seem to exclusively use Motec and have experience with the setup, wiring harness etc but any aftermarket ECU can be made to work. I know of engines running Autronic, TECIII, Haltec, DTA etc.

You may want to speak to Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) who will set up and map virtually any system for (I suspect) much less money than the more widely promoted options.

Richard

 

[pressing]

Wayne is fantastic. Took my Roock tuned 993gt2 that was supposed to be producing 480 (Actually 418!) to 520bhp and 700+nm of torque. Extracted even more out of Vic's gt2.

 

[Melv]

You've got a lovely original car there Simon (apart from the cup holders [] )...why mess with it???

Mel

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I looked into the possibility of "diying" and then getting the car mapped. The currently availiable "kits" from the established tuners do have an awful lot going for them. For starters you don't have to mess about building a loom and then trial it for reliability, likewise for nearly all the bits you will have to do yourself. Motec from memory would not sell you a pre made loom (i could be wrong by now). DTA was the next cheapest option but there are very few known cars in exisitance, so you'd be on yer own!
Probably the best compromise is to buy from a well know specialist,fit yourself and then arrange for mapping. At least some labour will be saved and your more likely to get some decent help in the build up stage. If you really must map it yourself then you better know what your doing!! But there must be a few people on the net who've been there n dun that to help out.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Mel

I don't intend to take it very far and I want to ensure that everything is easily retro fitted but the chassis is just crying out for a little more power. About 325 bhp and a better torque curve would do nicely. I don't want to dramatically change the characteristics of the car but can see real benefits to a few tweeks.

I have now looked at various alternatives. The cost of the Motec bits are about £1700 which makes the mapping and fitting rather dear to say the least. The mapping on a Porsche isn't that hard, being normally aspirated and certainly a lot easier than the Evos I am used to. However, I wouldn't map it myself because I don't have the time.

I think the real problem is that Motec is far more expensive than its competition and it really doesn't give much benefit for the aplication. i have now looked at various alternatives and believe I can achieve exactly the same thing for £2500 fitted with Autronics. This is probably the way I will go as somebody i know and respect is the Autronics importer and is a very good mapper indeed.

More thought in due course!

 

[PhilRS]

Simon,

I would spend my money with tuning my chassis! In my view (I went from a 5-speed
964 RS 300 bhp to a 6-speed 964 RS 325 bhp), if track behaviour is your priority,
a properly set-up chassis (maybe RSR dual-spring shocks?) and shorter gear ratios will
achieve more for less money, but then you might already have a good chassis set-up...

Phil.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Phil

I agree that chassis mods are worthwhile but I have all new suspension and its set up really well so I am not too keen to play. On top of that, I also want to keep the car as original as possible. I probably have a warped sense of "orininal" as I am prepared to do stuff to the xorst and intake, and fit an after market ECU. I guess that these are easy to swap back.

I have been thinking of short ratio gears. Has anybody got experience of this? How well does it work on a car that is used on road and trck. Any suggestions welcomed.

 

[Melv]

Simon

Ever though of going the Hot Film route??

Mel

 

[Andy Tims]

The other obvious thing to consider is training.

We can all improve & the benefits are transferable from car to car.

 

[Yoda]

Couldn't agree more Tim - I went through this thought process a while back and there is a lot for me to learn before I need/can use the extra power. Still nice to have though []

 

[Guest]

....and I recently went through the same process......and will do suspenders before power especially after Donnington....!....and gt lots more training......specifically how to sight a track!....and when it lets go, how it lets go, and what to do to stop it or make it let go at the appropriate time.....THEN I'll add the ponies!

 

[SimonExtreme]

Mel

The car already has hot film, latgr throttle decat. cup pipe, K&N intake with a drilled airbox and chip. It is producing 292bhp and 260 lbs/ft. I am just greedy and want more. On the road the biggest factor in getting between points a and b as fast as possible in power. Nobody in their right mind would drive a car anywhere near it limit therefore it what the car does between the corners that count. In addition, the chassis and brakes acn certainly handle more power.

I now have a few interesting ideas. I can get an Autronics ECU fitted and mapped for about £3000. It will do everything the Motec will do. However, I am trying to really undertand the gains possible. 9M claim up to about 325 bhp and 395lbs.ft while another well know independent says that on their RR they don't see much difference between a chipped car and a Motec. Who do I believe?

So its back to basics. How much air can you get into an RS engine without blowing and where are the bottlenecks. What is being suggested to me is that the limitations are in the head. If I can prove this, then there is little point in going past a certain point on the inlet and exhaust side. For instance, if we assume thye 9M figures are correct and that the head does limit power to what they gain, doing some really special stuff with the exhaust isn't worth it. Once you reach the oint where the exhaust back pressure is equal to or less than that created by the haed, there is no oint in going any further.

It complicated and I feel like I am only scratching the surface.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Regarding driver training. I agree that it is essential and I will be doing some. I will start on either airfiel type trackdays or somewhere really safe like Bedford and get some instruction. I won't be taking the car to Donni first time out! Getting a bit loose through Craners is not the time to begin to understand the handling characteristics of a new toy [&:] However, this car is still 25 - 40 bhp per tonne short of what I have had before and while I don't claim to be a driving god (far from it) I am certain that more power won't hold up the learning process.