Tyres - my track day feedback

[waxman]

Thought I' d post a note of my relative experience between Pirelli and Bridgestone tyres on track day - not what you'd call a scientific study but anyhow:
Last year took the GTS to Goodwood on a full PCGB track day GTS on Pirelli's - warm day and put in a good number of sessions and scrubbed out the rears loosing the last 2 or 3 mm. What I was not expecting was the fronts that had about 5 to 6 mm on them the tread blocks skewed ( not just feathered but skewed across the whole tyre and completely distorted , to such an extent that having driven to my OPC for centre lock check I ended up replacing all 4 tyres- went back to Bridgestones As I had run on my C2S

So last month I approached a half day at castle coombe with PCGB with some trepidation as to the impending hole in my wallet. I had the tread depth measured before the drive down in the inside middle and outside on the 4 tyres and recorded these . Did a good few sessions on the day which was again dry but slightly cooler and drove back to have the depths compared- I was pretty surprised to confirm what my eyes were telling me - rear tyres no reduction at all and fronts nothing on inner and middle and just 1 mm on OSF and NSF outside measurement

Don't know about track surface difference between the two circuits and it was slightly cooler at castle coombe - CoG had set up car after change to Bridgestones but a pretty different outcome on the tyres

 

[garyw]

Crikey- now that is a big difference!
I always had Bridgestones on my Turbo and enjoyed and trusted them..

 

[ralphmusic]

Tony,

No more understeer?

Mine used to push (pre my visit to CoG) at Goodwood particularly at Lavent and Woodcote.

I recall you spoke with the chief instructor so with that in mind and CoG settings how much do you think is tyres?

Ralph

 

[waxman]

Gary as you say a big difference- as Ralph notes I was so surprised At the Pirellis wear I spoke to the instructors to see if my driving style ( or lack of) was contributing but those that had been out with me felt not

Ralph
My view is it is mainly the tyres but as you know a complicated subject even for race engineers with much more skill than me to determine the result of geo/ compound and the mix this gives
I am a fan of the Bridgestones that I feel give a good around balance of wear and performance and the car certainly feels planted after the set up on road and track
Perhaps I' ll try Michelins next time to keep the thread going!

 

[MarlowCrew]

Pirelli have the edge when it comes to calendars.

The track day information on wear adds to the volume of knowledge held on this forum. As timing is forbidden at such events we aren't going to know if despite the wear lap times were significantly quicker.

In what feels like a previous life with a different car manufacturer I can say "" "nothing gripped like a Dunlop" in the dry for 4000 miles of road use, before complete new set of tyres was required.

On Tony's comment regarding "..complicated subject even for race engineers" , I wish someone, race engineer or mere mortal would uncomplicated this subject for us. The cynic in me thinks that the commercial aspects add a further level of complexity to the topic where actually there are answers in terms of performance versus wear.

 

[RJKflyer]

This is interesting as I have Bridgestones on my turbo and was contemplating turning to Pirellis:
1. The Bridgestones, although hard to fault in the dry, seem a bit slippery in the wet (or is it the 500 hp...?)
2. The Pirellis seem to have materially better wet grip according to their Euro ratings ('A' versus 'C' - quite different) , and the odd review
3. The Pirellis are TW220 vs. 140 for RE050 (but I don't care about this)
4. The Pirellis are supposed to be slightly quieter (a minor consideration)

However, I too recently did some time on track, at Silverstone, which was a full day of Porsche training and which included some degree of scrubbing on the test tracks, plus 3 x 5 hottish laps of the GP full circuit. Air temp ca. 20-21 deg C. Sunny.

I was quite surprised to find that the tyre wear (which i measured because I'm OCD) was 0.1 - 0.2mm overall at the most after the day's work (and the 240 mile round trip there and back, and to be fair a few more miles since I last measured). It was measurable, but only just. I'm at ca. 5mm tread, aside the inside rear edges (nothing to do with Silverstone...)

Almost disappointing as I was looking to change to Pirellis, but reading this I wonder if I should stay on the RE050s?

 

[waxman]

Any thoughts/experience to compare from our 991 brethren who have tracked their cars as I think Pirellis are a more standard OE fitment ?

 

[tscaptain]

Best bet is to get another set of wheels/tyres for track use.[] I have a set of Turbo 1 wheels with Pirelli Corsas. I then don't worry about how much damage might be happening to my Bridgestone road tyres[] (And I still think the Bridgestones are the best all rounder for the road)
BTW, if you find that the tyre noise on long journeys is very tiresome, I have found a solution to that too.....[] Comparing the road noise on our roads to the road noise from the French roads on our recent trip is very interesting. You don't get that "roar" from most of the French roads. (Sorry for that bit of off thread info!)[]

 

[RJKflyer]

Ah, glad someone mentioned Corsas...

Was considering those as:
1. I don't care too much about wear
2. They too are 'A' rated for wet, which is a huge difference to MPSC+ etc
3. I have winters for winter so need not worry about poor cold performance.

Thoughts? Esp re wet/slippery performance.

 

[tscaptain]

You wouldn't want to drive on roads with lots of standing water with them.......[&:] Great grip in the dry.

 

[pwebb]

ORIGINAL: tscaptain


BTW, if you find that the tyre noise on long journeys is very tiresome, I have found a solution to that too.....[] Comparing the road noise on our roads to the road noise from the French roads on our recent trip is very interesting. You don't get that "roar" from most of the French roads. (Sorry for that bit of off thread info!)[]

A lot of French roads use porous asphalt which apart from getting surface water away quicker is also 50% quieter than normal asphalt which is another 50% quieter than concrete. Hence the terrible noise on parts of the M25. But of course it's more expensive...

 

[waxman]

Ah, glad someone mentioned Corsas...

---
as we seem to have gone off piste with the thread

Pirelli corsas on my Ducati 748SP - yep every time[]

the Pirelli Corsa Rossos supplied by Volvo on my wifes new Volvo XC60 - completely pointless[8|]

 

[RJKflyer]

Agree P Zero Rossos seem poor, but they're not Corsas?

 

[spyderman]

To some extent, normal treaded road tyres are going to wear on track in a similar manner that winter tyres would wear on the roads in summer. As the tyre heats up, the tread blocks will start to move around and deform. In this situation, heat management is even more crucial to maintain an optical contact patch and avoid really accelerated wear. If you let the pressures build the tyre will bulge over the centre of the tread and you'll cause excessive wear. With front tyres this will likely increase understeer and aggressive drivers will apply more lock, causing even more wear. On the back back - especially with a 911 - you'll get understeer which obviously could put you in the gravel - or worse. What you need is a tyre with fewer, larger, and less deep tread blocks - as well as a different compound.

Rather than P Zeros Rossos or Pilot Sport 2s or RE050As for any remotely serious track work you need to consider tyres like the Toyo R888, Yokohama AD08 or Pirelli P Zero Trofeo. Unfortunately, having 19" wheels will limit your choice.

The trade off, of course, is that as soon as you reduce the tread depth and the number of grooves, you reduce the tyre's ability to shed water.

Chris.

 

[tscaptain]

ORIGINAL: spyderman

to maintain an optical contact patch

Is that of these.....?

 

[RJKflyer]

Completely understand Chris' comment about 'proper' R tyres for track, but...

ORIGINAL: spyderman

Unfortunately, having 19" wheels will limit your choice.

Unfortunately, having a Warranty limits your choice even further... ...hence the interest in Corsa System as it's N-rated.

 

[Rintoul]

Just to add my 2p worth. Having just returned from a 3 week touring trip to the Alps, Italy etc in the C4 GTS (heavily loaded with luggage eg 42 shirts, 42 sets underwear (and that was only part of my stuff), plus wifes numerous bags of special equipment, shoes, irons etc,) I find that the Bridgestones have only used about 1mm F and 2mm R of tread. This is despite numerous passes driven with great gusto. Having used various makes of tires over the years I believe that these are currently the best all round road tyre. They grip well enough in both dry and wet and the wear rate is excellent. I seem to recall thinking that the Pirelli winter tyres made more road noise (different tread blocks I know).
Worst for wear were Contis on a Turbo, of the various sets used between 3700 to 4600 miles maximum on the rears. (3 sets of rears in a year).
If you are not bothered by cost (due to higher price and higher wear rates, also they start off with less tread) then my vote goes to the Pirelli Corsas as fitted to my Scuderia. Someone has commented about poor wet grip, I don't find it an issue at all until tread depth drops, but that applies to all makes of tire.

 

[skendrick]

I have always used Bridgestones on all my cars just because the car felt more planted.
I'm going to Nurnburgring next year with my mates, they have a 997 turbo & BMW 135M.
So I will be swapping the Michelins (which were on the car when purchased 3 weeks ago) over the Bridgestones.

 

[waxman]

So I will be swapping the Michelins (which were on the car when purchased 3 weeks ago) over the Bridgestones.
[/quote]

Wondering why you would change the Michelins -- there is a problem with the Michelins or are they worn?

 

[skendrick]

Hi Tony,

There is about 4mm of tread left so when they get to the end of their time I will be replacing them with Bridgestones.
I wouldn't change them for the sake of changing them, that would be throwing money away.