understeer

[ever88]

would you say these (944 T) cars tend to understeer when brisk into a corner?

I feel as though mine does, but wondered how others were.

Personally, I feel more comfortable with feeling the rear search for grip and wonder if there is something I could do to get that

 

[Lowtimer]

Straight out of the box, with all factory settings and everything fresh and in good order, they are set up for mild stabilising understeer.

However, there are lots of variables, mostly adjustable, so you can pretty much have your choice of how it behaves. Things you can change include how much stagger you have on your wheels and tyres, what pressures you are using, what suspension settings you have, the overall condition of the bushes and the rest of the suspension, and whether you have a limited-slip diff, how that is set up and so on. Obviously driving style has an effect too.

If your suspension is all recent, and your rubber in good order, your best bet would be to talk to a good alignment place like Centre Gravity and ask their advice on dialling out some of the understeer.

 

[sawood12]

How are you driving the car? I guess it depends what's causing your understeer. You can cause any car to understeer if you provoke it. 944's may have 50/50 weight distribution, but that weight is positioned at the ends of the car so you still have a dirty great lump of an engine up front trying to pull you towards the outside of the bend.

Before my 944 I had only had FWD cars and nothing anywhere near the power or pedigree of a 944 so I had to change my driving style significantly - but after a bit of practice I found the car to be planted and understeer was not an issue, even before the KW's - and i was running 205's up front.

You're probably a very competent driver so apols if i'm teaching you to suck eggs, but adjusting your driving style is more fun, satisfying and cheaper than spending more money on more acres of rubber and expensive suspension geo setups that may not give you much of an improvement.

 

[amrbose14]

I find a well set up 944 is pretty adjustable, but you always know the weight is at either end. If I try to swing violently into the corner it will understeer. And it feels like there is a very pronounced sort of flop as it settles (no KWs.. obviously). However, once it's settled it is pretty neutral. That's one of the nice things about it really, I think. The limit is 'elastic'. There aren't acres of grip but with a large moment of intertia you get a lot of weight transfer front to back as you brake/accelerate. This affects how much grip this is at either end. So if you can (and I'm not saying that I can...!) manage the weight transfer you can make a big difference to the oversteer/understeer characteristics. Or I could be talking out of my trousers...

Chris
87 220T.

 

[ever88]

I have recently owned a z3 m coupe which was very tail happy and much more powerful.

I would prefer something in between but agree with some comments suggested here

turbo lag is something that takes a bit of getting used to. when you plant foot down, the surge is somewhat delayed from previous experences..

I'm merely refering to brisk driving and when nearing a corner at modest but quick speed, I can sense tyres are fighting quite hard on the front and would understeer quite a lot if I pushed it more. I dislike this feel as it does feel like front wheel drive behaviour.

it's standard setup up and I do have thoughts of freshening things up but are reserving time to do this when finsihed spending money on other more immediate things in life at the moment.

just thought I would pose the question

 

[944Turbo]

Also worth checking what front wheels / tyres you have - in 17" ideally a 9" (255) rear coupled with a 7.5" (225) front on a turbo though some go to 8" front. 911's have smaller fronts and the wheels come up for sale more often.
Tony

 

[Lowtimer]

Yours sounds to have a lot more initial understeer than mine, which is on standard late turbo suspension and wheels (part from 968 castor blocks) and Toyo T-1R. My suspension is all new becaue I've just had it done, including the bushes but it was not particularly understeery beforehand either.

Having the geometry corrected to factory settings (if it has not been done for a while) is likely to help, as changes in camber and castor can make a tremendous difference to the feel of the car. Also likely your anti roll bar bushes are worn, and if they are unequally worn front versus rear, you will have differing amounts of effectiveness from the front and rear anti roll bars which will change the cornering balance of the car.

Really on a 20+ year old car it could be many different things.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: amrbose14

I find a well set up 944 is pretty adjustable, but you always know the weight is at either end. If I try to swing violently into the corner it will understeer. And it feels like there is a very pronounced sort of flop as it settles (no KWs.. obviously). However, once it's settled it is pretty neutral. That's one of the nice things about it really, I think. The limit is 'elastic'. There aren't acres of grip but with a large moment of intertia you get a lot of weight transfer front to back as you brake/accelerate. This affects how much grip this is at either end. So if you can (and I'm not saying that I can...!) manage the weight transfer you can make a big difference to the oversteer/understeer characteristics. Or I could be talking out of my trousers...

Chris
87 220T.

I know what you mean about 'elastic' and I think this is a property of the high polar moment of inertia. 944's don't respond well to being man-handled violently, but if you settle the car there is tons of grip and when it does let go it doesn't snap like a mid engined car with a lower polar moment of inertia has a tendency to. I think this is a far better characteristic to have for a road car driven by keen amateurs. Boxsters are definately a bit more twitchy on the limit and when i've driven a Boxster in damp or wet conditions i've never had the same confidence as int he 944 - but in the dry they are spectacular.

I also found tyre pressure to be influential. I had a leaky valve on one of the rears for a time and over the period of about three weeks or so you could feel the difference in grip as the tyre lost pressure.

 

[amrbose14]

Exactly. It's stable going straight, it's stable when it's rotating. It's moving between those states that is where the trick is. What is less often pointed out (to my limited way of thinking) is that a large polar moment of intertia means that how you drive the car has a large impact on the grip levels as well. If managed well, you can move the weight between front and back, altering the balance - in particular giving more grip on turn in. Occasionally (OK, very occasionally) I get the impression I have managed this! On other occasions the inherent stability has kept me on the road... I appreciate the way when you realise you have committed a bit too much to the corner, lifting off snaps the rear end round just enough.

Anyway... to echo previous comments, ever88, a good set up makes the world of difference. Unlike most cars there is a high degree of adjustablity in the set up, even on the standard suspension. Alot of the understeer can be dialed out. I'm not sure you can make they pointy and go-kart like, but that's not the point. It's a sports car for mortals!

I was very impressed when I drove a late model Elise around Bedford Autodrome. That felt like a mid-engined car you could get stuck in with...

ORIGINAL: sawood12


I know what you mean about 'elastic' and I think this is a property of the high polar moment of inertia. 944's don't respond well to being man-handled violently, but if you settle the car there is tons of grip and when it does let go it doesn't snap like a mid engined car with a lower polar moment of inertia has a tendency to. I think this is a far better characteristic to have for a road car driven by keen amateurs. Boxsters are definately a bit more twitchy on the limit and when i've driven a Boxster in damp or wet conditions i've never had the same confidence as int he 944 - but in the dry they are spectacular.

I also found tyre pressure to be influential. I had a leaky valve on one of the rears for a time and over the period of about three weeks or so you could feel the difference in grip as the tyre lost pressure.

 

[ever88]

I suppose it's getting used to a 944 again also

I accept comments made and if looking to keep long term I may just spend a little on it. It's in great condition so I suppose its worth it. I do want to upgrade to coilovers and freshen up bushes everywhere but it does mean a pretty penny that you never get back. And I acn be a bit tight fisted at times.

2 kids under 3 will make you worry like hell at just where the hell all my wages are going[]

And I enjoy swapping cars around quite a bit too
I've onwed 3 944 models and do like them but I remember my previous one seemed to be more nimble. too subjective a comment though given the time laspses in between ownership.

first job is to get the steering clunky shaft changed thats doing my head in and have the steering pump seals replaced.

atleast there is some adjustment capability to try and improve things if I do put my hand in the pocket for a spend

 

[Hilux]

ORIGINAL: ever88

I suppose it's getting used to a 944 again also

I accept comments made and if looking to keep long term I may just spend a little on it. It's in great condition so I suppose its worth it.  I do want to upgrade to coilovers and freshen up bushes everywhere but it does mean a pretty penny that you never get back.  And I acn be a bit tight fisted at times.

2 kids under 3 will make you worry like hell at just where the hell all my wages are going[]

And I enjoy swapping cars around quite a bit too
I've onwed 3 944 models and do like them but I remember my previous one seemed to be more nimble.  too subjective a comment though given the time laspses in between ownership. 

first job is to get the steering clunky shaft changed thats doing my head in and have the steering pump seals replaced.

atleast there is some adjustment capability to try and improve things if I do put my hand in the pocket for a spend

You can spend all the money in the world on geometry alignment (static) that is meaningless if the bushes and mounts are the originals. Upgrade to the 968 caster mounts in particular. Get the suspension optimised and then aligned.

 

[Peter Empson]

Trail braking should kill off the understeer on corners that you need to reduce the speed on very effectively, my rather tired 944S suspension will understeer all day if you let it, but being confident on the brakes gets rid of this completely. My white car is setup to not understeer, so it is possible with work, geo, arb's and castor mounts are probably the keys to this.

 

[amrbose14]

Is it not the case that in race spec 944s tend to be oversteerers? Presumably there is more front to be had at the front than the back for some reason.

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson

Trail braking should kill off the understeer on corners that you need to reduce the speed on very effectively, my rather tired 944S suspension will understeer all day if you let it, but being confident on the brakes gets rid of this completely. My white car is setup to not understeer, so it is possible with work, geo, arb's and castor mounts are probably the keys to this.

 

[Peter Empson]

There are so many options on 944s for getting rid of understeer, I forgot to mention going for wider tyres at the front as another route worth persuing (but they're arguably somewhat pointless without the correct geo), and if you want easy and cheap adjustability then the 968 M030 rear anti roll bar gives you a crude but effective choice.