Value of a race 944?

Andy97 · Aug 11, 2008

Race cars are difficut to value, I know, but has anyone got an idea what one should pay for a 944S2 prepared to PCGB club champinship regs?

Charles Ivey have 2 for sale, one at £14K & one at £8K, although the spec is similar as follows:
968 ARBs, LSD, Fibre Glass front wings & bonnet, a weight of approx 1200kg, Koni double adjustable coil over suspension & Stainless Steel Braided Hoses.

The £8K car was their "spare" apparently but has just been re-sprayed.

I am looking for a car suitable for the Classic Sports Car Clubs "Future Classic" series of 40 min mini-enduros for one or two drivers & reckon a 944 S2 might go well in the 2 litre to 3 lite class.

Charles Ivey haven't really explained the £6K difference in price (except to say it was their spare). I have seen a couple of race 944 Turbos for sale for about 8K but think that an S2 might be easier to live with!

Any advice would appreciated.

Thanks

Andy

stevespic · Aug 11, 2008

From what i have been looking at i think anything from 8 to 16k sounds fair depending on the specs... at the end of the day whats the cost of building one ? a decent s2 plus the suspension upgrade alone could take you straight to the 8k mark....I have to say i have been thinking of going for broke on my s2 and doing the same thing it feels like a slippery slope and if i was going to race then i would want to win and having the best of everything can help but can cost a small fortune....I have seen race cars listed all over and some are up for a lot more than 16k...

Andy97 · Aug 12, 2008

Thanks for the reply. I think that its an absolute fact that buying a car already prepared for racing is a lot cheaper than trying to do it yourself. I guess valuing cars is like all things and "supply & demand" applies, in fact I think that is a far more relevant aspect than what a car cost to build in the first place. I have seen some saloon or hatch backs not sell at £8K when they cost £50-60K to build because they were "unfashionable".

How badly does someone want the car, & how badly does someone need to sell?

Things are a bit different in historic/ classic racing & if you can prove that Jim Clark or Stirling Moss etc once raced it then its a different ball game than for a PCGB Club series S2!

Anyone know what other race S2's have sold for in the last year or so?

lali · Aug 12, 2008

I know of a "brand new" race S2 that was sold for near the £15K mark very recently.
Brief spec:
Welded in SD cage
GAZ remote resevoir suspension
GRP front end
Blueprinted race engine
Usual inside bits, seats/harness/fire ext..etc

John Sims · Aug 13, 2008

9 years ago an "Out of the box" race prepared 944 for the, then fledgling, 944 Series was £10K. IIRC that was stripped, caged, GRP front, Fire Eater, blueprinted Lux engine and 220 Turbo brakes.

Fen · Aug 13, 2008

A mate of mine once bought a pre-prepared XR2 for the Scottish championship on the basis it was going to be cheaper than what it had cost another mate to build his road-going XR2 into a race car. Ultimately he ended up completely rebuilding the pre-built car because he wasn't happy with the quality of work, which probably cost him money. The moral being it's only cheaper if it's been prepared well enough, and there is a certain intangible value in having prepared it yourself so you know exactly what has been done and to what standard.

John Sims · Aug 13, 2008

True enough. However, if a car has been prepared and raced successfully in a specific championship you might be better off. All race series have little quirks and wrinkles that, over the years, competitors learn to exploit. If you are new to a series it could take a year or more to adapt your car to include these subtle mods.

Neil Haughey · Aug 13, 2008

ORIGINAL: John Sims

True enough. However, if a car has been prepared and raced successfully in a specific championship you might be better off. All race series have little quirks and wrinkles that, over the years, competitors learn to exploit. If you are new to a series it could take a year or more to adapt your car to include these subtle mods.

I have often wondered if perhaps sometimes the premium one sees on a wining car is in fact no premium just a case where the driver was better? With a championship like PCGB how much can the rules really be exploited with a car like the S2 for example?

RE: Koni suspension. Is that MO30 or the mega expensive Koni race shocks? Seems surprising that anyone would race on M030 these days.

lali · Aug 13, 2008

9 years ago £10K was a serious amount of money!

John Sims · Aug 14, 2008

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

I have often wondered if perhaps sometimes the premium one sees on a wining car is in fact no premium .......

If it is a car that spent most of its time at the front it is less likely to have spent most of its time in a gravel trap or worse .'. it is probably worth more than a car that lost a lot.

If it is a winning car it means that car has the potential to win and therefore the only thing holding it back is the driver. If it is an "also ran" car you will never know if not winning is the fault of the driver or the car. I know which car I would rather be in when the lights turn green.

There are 1001 subtleties in preparing a car which can help or hinder its progress in any series no matter how strickly governed. If you are serious about winning and have the option between starting blind from scratch or buying a previous winning car I would have thought the latter would be preferable.

John Sims · Aug 14, 2008

ORIGINAL: lali

9 years ago £10K was a serious amount of money!

It is a serious amount of money today. [

] On the other hand many/most 944s were half the age they are now and worth double and more their current values.

Guest · Aug 14, 2008

We built a Civic EK4 from a bare bodyshell last year..... Never Ever Again [

] The car itself started life as a 1.4 auto with a FSH and 60k miles.... We hads a LHD Group A Civic rally car which was tired and shook after 8 or 9 years rallying and multiple crashes. We basically rebuilt all the suspension - brakes - engine - box before putting it all in the "new" shell. It cost us a kings ransom to do this. We sold the car on after but never got even close to what the original Civic cost us.....[:'(]

Thing is getting a car thats already prepped is all well and good but what about its history. Was it all properly built.....? You always know a "tired" car as it creaks and rattles. You can do the whole build from scratch - thats a moneypit but at least you know what you have.... [&:]

If you really want boring pictures of the build ( Even though its not a 944 )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13752593@N08/sets/72157602068998101/

Fen · Aug 14, 2008

In spite of the story of my mate I'm currently toying with buying a pre-built toy - I'm torn between a circuit racer (possibly a Mini Miglia - they set them up differently down here and I'd be intrigued to run one with a UK setup where you appear to turn in, then plant the throttle and catch the oversteer rather than the neutral setup they run in NZ) or a proper offroader.

I could slowly modify my road-going off-roader, but a combo of the cost, the need to get it certified to remain road legal and the knowledge that while it looks OK just now it would soon be full of dents and scrapes put me off. Of course I could just bite the bullet and buy stage 1 of a Mosquito to build myself...

John Sims · Aug 14, 2008

ORIGINAL: Fen

In spite of the story of my mate I'm currently toying with buying a pre-built toy - I'm torn between a circuit racer (possibly a Mini Miglia - they set them up differently down here and I'd be intrigued to run one with a UK setup where you appear to turn in, then plant the throttle and catch the oversteer rather than the neutral setup they run in NZ) or a proper offroader.

I could slowly modify my road-going off-roader, but a combo of the cost, the need to get it certified to remain road legal and the knowledge that while it looks OK just now it would soon be full of dents and scrapes put me off. Of course I could just bite the bullet and buy stage 1 of a Mosquito to build myself...

I wouldn't want to influence you unduly but (in the following order) Mosquito, Mosquito, Mosquito, 4x4, Mosquito, 4x4, Mosquito, Car.

With a 4x4 I would be inclined (already have [

]) to start with a standard 4x4 and modify it as you go for the following reasons:-

You know what you have to start with.
You will know what its short commings are in the terain you tackle most frequently and can address those without wasting time and money kitting out for something you never see.
If you fit it you will know how to get it off to repair it/clean it/replace it.

Main thing - fit a cage. It is amazing how the most innocent looking track can potentially turn into a roll over. Sims family wouldn't be here today if Belindas Land Rover didn't find a tree to lean on when a slippery root sent us over the edge of a river bank. [&:]

Fen · Aug 14, 2008

I'm inclined to agree, but I could probably buy a deregistered LandCruiser FJ40 with a Chevy V8 and disk brakes, running some kind of 35" Super Swampzilla Mud Dueller tyres on beadlock rims and a PTO winch for a lot less than a lift kit, rims & tyres plus the other necessary tweaks to fit it all to my Jeep - that is Jeep with a capital J; the Isuzu is gone. That's a whole lot of fun for about £2-£3k and if it does roll down a hillside then my only concern is getting out - but then it is Japanese [:'(], which does count for a lot in my book.

Available 4x4 usage here goes from pulling firewood out of the paddock through towing a horse trailer to "shiny" trips and gymkhanas (all of which the Jeep can do, but shiny trips temd to be in the dry) to mud, ruts and interesting sounding tracks known as things like "the rock garden" which I understand is a series of huge rocks making a staircase and "winch every inch" which needs little explanation. I know me, and I therefore know where on that spectrum I want to be playing.

I really do plan to buy a Mosquito kit, but not for a little while yet as it's a more serious financial commitment.

333pg333 · Aug 14, 2008

Lot's of good bargains in NZ I see.

John Sims · Aug 14, 2008

ORIGINAL: Fen

.......
I really do plan to buy a Mosquito kit, but not for a little while yet ........

Good. Otherwise, knowing someone who I coud talk to about one would make me want one even more.

I'm glad to see you aren't enjoying NZ and will no doubt be returning to Blighty very soon.

Fen · Aug 15, 2008

Yeah, it's rubbish here. We move house next week and it's going to be horrible - we're going to be able to see our nearest neighbour's house only 700m or so away (until the leaves grow back on the trees in Spring) and everything [

]

Partick - bargains - so it appears. I haven't looked at any of the cars in the metal, but under $8,000 seems to cover the vast majority of properly set-up non-registered 4x4s.