VW-Audi/Porsche Engine WTF

[danfloun]

Hi guys,

Can someone make clear in not to many paragraphs, who developed the engines in the 944.
I've been doing a lot of reading up but there is, as always, lots of wrong and mixed up info online.

My understanding is that the 944 engine is derived from the VW/Porsche handshake, although the later models were redeveloped my porsche, but they are still VW/Porsche engines are they not?

I'm not bothered, I couldn't care a less.
It makes no odds to me who made the components, if porsche saw fit to use them then they must have been just as good as what porsche would have developed solo anyway, otherwise the wouldn't have used them right?

 

[pixie*porsche]

As far as I am aware the 944 engine was a Porsche design, the 924 a Porsche / VW / Audi combined design?

 

[colin944]

924 engine is audi 100 or vw lt van block with alloy porsche head and a bit more reworks inside.944 engine is really just half of a 928 engine with balance shafts added it is a porsche design and has nothing really to do with VW. Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Lowtimer]

While it is a bit of an over simplification to say the 924S / 944 / 968 engine is half a 928 engine, it is true enough in the sense that there is no Audi in any of them, whereas the 924 two-litre engine has some Audi elements.

 

[944 man]

Further to the above: the basic engine was adapted by AUDI (it was a DKW engine originally, conceived when DKW was owned by Daimler-Benz, later sold to Auto-Union) and used in their 100 saloon. It was further greatly developed by Porsche (adding a forged crank, a fettled cylinder head and mechanical fuel injection, giving 125PS at a time when Ford and GM 2l cars managed about 85-95PS) for the 924. The engine used in the 924 was very different from that used in the AUDI 100, although it looked similar, sharing a common cam cover.

Later, VW used a cheaper low-compression version of the AUDI engine in a petrol LT van, but as you ca see; this doesnt make it a 'VW van engine'. This nonsense is the preserve of idiots, so you know what value to apply to their other opinions...[]

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Porsche were commisioned by VW to build a sports coupe, obviously based around VW group parts. VW pulled the plug, so Porsche went ahead anyway and made the 924 with the VW group-derived 2.0 engine. They then slotted in their own engine to make the 924S, and added wide arches to make the 944. This was then developed in to the later 944 with the new interior, and the 924 production ended.

Porsches continue to have plenty of VW group parts in them. Why not, it brings economies of scale and the companies have very close family ties. Sadly, this is where it all broke down: Porsche wanted to buy VW in order to ensure continued parts supply security, and settle a few old family scores. We all know where that ended. [&o]

Most smaller car manufacturers use major companies' parts bins even if they're not part of the group. Those that make everything themselves tend not to be very reliable.

 

[Riverside]

Most 924 & 944 shells were put together by Audi, (968 shells were built in-house by Porsche), the front suspension on the 924 originally used Mk1 Golf arms & struts, the rear torsion beam setup was derived from the Beetle, the gearbox is a development of an Audi transaxle (hence why the boot floor is so high), and of course the original 924 was intended to be a VAG car developed by Porsche (a successor to the 914), Porsche took it to production when VAG pulled out of the deal. It's also worth bearing in mind that 125bhp out of a 2 litre 924 was a lot in 1976 and still good in 1982. In GTS spec the 924 Carrera GT with that 'van engine' ran 350~odd bhp & finished 6th at LeMans in 1980 iirc.

The 356 was developed from the Beetle & shared far more components & design with VW than even a 924, the two companies have a long history of working together. Porsche positioned themselves more upmarket with the 911 in 1967 and have remained there since, but the 914, 924/44/68 & Boxster sit in the market sector that Porsche originally entered with the 356.

If a VW badge was on the nose & "Developed by Porsche" written in the literature it'd be considered one of the all time classic VWs. The same car with a more 'exclusive' badge doesn;t make it any less of a car.

PS I hate it when people ask what I drive. I usually just say an old hot hatch & try to leave it at that, but if I have to name the manufacturer I make sure I always call it "an old Porsche" rather than "a Porsche". Big difference []

 

[colin944]

I do know that the 924 engine is not the same as a VW Lt van. But I was simplifing the answer in oeder to answer the origional question.I owned a 924 for 9 years and loved it in fact I still regret letting it go.Also I think you will find if you check your facts that the 924 cast iron block is very much thye same on an Audi 100 ,a VW Lt and the 924.Yes there are slight differences but they are essentialy the same basic block with differend heads and internals.Just because Porsche used the Audi Factory to build the 924 and 944 they are in no way any less Porsche than a 911 or any other model in the range.And in any case Porsche used Valamet to build Boxters on the same line as Saab 93's.Are they any less of a Porsche.Also Porsche has always used other companys to build thier cars Karmann? for example.

 

[os951]

As a finn, i must say Valmet built Boxsters & Caymans are better than german built. In the matter of fact, Porsche have come to the same conclusion themselves. Less quality issues in the finnish plant.
Valmet have not manufactured Saabs for years. They started with Saab back in 1968. Also some Talbots were made there. The darkest hour of this factory is the era when they fabricated "better" Lada Samaras. 80% of these were exported to UK. finnish made samaras had different interior etc.
Valmet will fabricate Porsche till the end of 2012. after that their contract with Porsche will end. As a replacement they will fabricate hybrid sports car Fisker Karma and Valmet own design electric car.

 

[Hilux]

Small engined base model Cayennes use a VW VR6 (R32) engine

 

[sawood12]

I thought the base Cayennes had v6's i.e. same Audi/VW v6's they put in their A4's and Golf's and not in-line 6's - which VR6 is - the cylinders were slightly canted over in a sort of very narrow V-formation to make the engine more compact, but it had a single in-line cylinder head `rather than two cylinder head banks, with 2 camshafts rather than two heads with two camshafts each. The 3.2ltr v6's in Golf's and Audi's and I guess the cayenne are definitely 90 degree (ish) proper V engines with two banks, two cylinder heads and four camshafts.

I had also read that the original 924 engine was derived from the VW van, but with new internals and cylinder head so was completely and utterly re-engineered apart from the block - higher compression ratio, Bosch fuel injection, so ended up a completely different animal - Human Beings may have ultimately derrived from small amphibians but we have moved on a bit from those early days! This was because the 924 was originally designed by Porsche for VW for a sporty coupe model and so used a derivative VW engine, but VW decided to ditch that project due to rising costs of a rear wheel drive car, and go for the in-house designed Scirrocco instead. Porsche decided to run with the 924 anyway and started working on its own 4 cylinder engine.

 

[Northern924]

As far as I was aware the 2.5l was a full blown Porsche designed engine, but there a lot more Porsche in a 924 than there is VW/Audi, the same can't be said for a Lotus and its Ford parts []

 

[poprock]

ORIGINAL: os951

Valmet will fabricate Porsche till the end of 2012. after that their contract with Porsche will end. As a replacement they will fabricate hybrid sports car Fisker Karma and Valmet own design electric car.

That"˜s nice to hear, the Karma is a really interesting looking car.

 

[Copperman05]

To answer your question the engines found in all 944's were designed and built in the porsche factory in Zuffenhausen, they were then later mated with the 944 body shells that were built at the Neckarsulm Audi factory where the work to build these cars was contracted out. Some later 944's and 968's were built solely at Zuffenhausen.

Edd

 

[graham.webb]

Dead right...the 944 engine is a Porsche engine, but even if it weren't the Audi engine was no slouch as 944 man says, in fact I think in its ultimate 2 litre turbocharged form it developed around 300 bhp for the 924 Carrera GT homologation specials. The resulting race cars were placed 6, 12, and 13th at le Mans in 1980, with a good placing in 1981 too.

Not bad for a van engine.......

 

[colin944]

Just to clear things up. I would never put down the 924 or it's engine.I loved my 924 and would really like another at some point.And anyway what's wrong with VW engines anyway?

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: colin944

Just to clear things up. I would never put down the 924 or it's engine.I loved my 924 and would really like another at some point.And anyway what's wrong with VW engines anyway?

Nothing, but if its not about VW engines, its about front engined models, or water cooled v air cooled or whatever...

Edd

 

[os951]

I thought the base Cayennes had v6's i.e. same Audi/VW v6's they put in their A4's and Golf's and not in-line 6's - which VR6 is -

Cayenne 6-cylinder engine is not based on Audi V6 engine. It is bascially a VR6 engine which can be found from Golf r32 models. Porsche just made their own heads and intake to that engine. A little bit same thing as they did with 924 engines back then. At the moment Porsche use two different style 6 cylinder "V" engines. New Panamera V6 is more or less a V8 unit from where they cut away two cylinders. They couldn't use Cayenne "VR" style V6 on Panamera models, because it would not fit to Panamera transmission.Also Cayenne 4WD systems does not fit under new Panamera V6. Most likely in the future also Cayenne will have that "true" Porsche designed & built V6 engine under it's hood, when they make necessary changes to 4 WD systems.
Cayenne VR6 engine just uses cleaver plastic covers which make it look like "normal" V6 engines. I have seen Cayenne engine without those covers and it is a pure VR6 design.
During the years Porsche has designed lot of engines for other brands like this Audi engine

Or this Seat Ibiza "System Porsche"

Or this Lada Samara engine

There was also a Suzuki model (made in Korea !) just for american markets several years ago. That sedan had Porsche designed inline-6

Not to mention this Porsche engine

Before Porsche's own company you can source a lot of famous Porsche designed engines, like this supercharged MB engine form late '20's

 

[sawood12]

Wow, I'm amazed the old vr6 lump is still going. Must be really struggle to lug a Cayenne around.

 

[Hilux]

ORIGINAL: colin944

Just to clear things up. I would never put down the 924 or it's engine.I loved my 924 and would really like another at some point.And anyway what's wrong with VW engines anyway?

Nothing, VAG probably have the best/reliable engines in the world as the Germans dont reinvent the wheel but develop their products often ending up backwards compatible - think Golf parts on your 924/944