Went to see a turbo today...

[Paul Fraser]

Only a couple of miles away so at a trader so I went to have a look. Very wet today so contented myself with just looking at it. Black outside/beige-tan inside, 1988, 87,000 miles. £3495.
From what I could see the bodywork is in good nick but as it was soaking that would need to be rechecked. Discovered invoices later for welding/painting to the sills (£800) and recent bodywork (£1200). The trader didn't know what the latter was for, though I suspect it was some amount of respraying. Overall the car seemed to be in good order, although I noticed the compressor was missing, clock LCD burst and the driver seat had a burst lower bolster.
Paperwork was a decidedly mixed bag: last stamped service 1999, although some non-specialist service since, one a year or two ago. Some other big bills for brake and other misc. work from the local OPC. The real frightener was the fact that the cambelt seems to have been last done in 1999 & 62,000 miles, so I guess that makes it more of a timebomb than a car... Couldn't see anything turbo related but then I've never had one before.
From the options sticker:
Vin ends JN100871
Eng51 (so 220bhp then)
LY9Y/LY9Y
A22 C48 E04
418 437 438 526 567 (side mouldings. comfort seat L&R, cloth panels, tinted windshield).

How would I know if the turbo side of things was in good order if I went back for a test drive?

 

[appletonn]

Get it hot and then leave it to idle for a minute or two - then blip the throttle hard and watch for any blue smoke from the exhaust (really needs two of you!).

Check that it comes on boost (circa 3500rpm) fully and that the dash gauge shows approx 1.75bar (actual = 0.75bar) on the gauge, although it is quite hard to read at speed []

Check for lots and lots of bills and invoices - that will indicate lots of loving care too

edited to say, you've already flagged that one!

I would worry about the lack of tlc the car has had, if someone has left the belts so long...[8|]


Good luck and let us know how you get on

 

[Paul Fraser]

Well, the impression I got from the paperwork is that money has been spent on those things that have become apparent to the owner (brakes, sills) and some other stuff the garages have found. I think the lack of belts maintainance thing is probably ignorance of the damage that can be caused by one snapping.

 

[poprock]

A lot of 944s are lacking in service records because the owners have taken the DIY route.

My Turbo had nothing in writing from the last owner, because he ran his own garage and did everything himself. No need for receipts when you don't pay for any of it.

Not saying the one in question had it's belts changed at home one Sunday afternoon, but it's possible.

 

[Paul Fraser]

Seriously doubt it: to many do-able jobs like disc/pad replacement and caliper corrosion done by the garages.

 

[Hilux]

I always consider that when buying a `specialist` car that lack of receipts for recent work (mechanical) would put me off.

The alternative signs of an enthusiastic owner are for the bits and bobs that have been done alongside regular servicing recently and if it hasnt a service history then a bag of receipts from Porsche suppliers, OPC`s, Euro car parts, GSF, Halfrauds etc ie: pipes, pads, tyres, oil, filters, belts, thermostats, light bulbs, relays etc would suggest that it was looked after on a regular basis.

Without those (to me anyway) it suggests its been run on a shoe string and needs a major service etc (budget up to £1000) for piece of mind motoring so add that into the price when considering it.

Interesting that it has an A/C delete (no compressor) as (others will be along to correct me) it is not simply a matter of removing the compressor I believe but that alternative bracketry is required?

 

[sawood12]

Your right Paul, if you remove the compressor then you've got to do something with the slack accessory drive belt that used to drive the A/C compressor. However it might be a good thing if the rest of the A/C stuff is still installed. You'll want to get it working again. These things are more efficient than the Eden Project domes at capturing heat inside the cabin.

£800 for sills is in the right ball park for a proper job to have been done - for outer sills at least but it is still worth checking it out. If you search out all the threads on buyer guide advice on this forum you will get mountains of info on what to look out for when buying these cars. But mission #1 is to establish timing belt life in both miles and age. Also try to familiarise yourself with the engine layout of a stock 944T so you can look out for mods. If there are mods then research them to make sure a proper job has been done. The worst scenario is that boost has been increased without modifying the ECU chips and fuel pressure regulator.

 

[Paul Fraser]

How did you work out it had a/c delete: is that what the A22 C48 E04 refers to? That's a bit of a blow as I'd rather have one with than wothout.

Edit: ah, I see the confusion: I meant the tyre compressor

 

[Fen]

I'd recommend trailering or towing it away if you do buy it. I wouldn't turn the key on that engine if it belonged to me and the belts could be 9 years old even if they have only done 25k miles. Seriously.

 

[Paul Fraser]

I doubt I'm going to pursue it: if it was silver/black maybe (How shallow is that ).
If I did I think I'd get the thing up on the ramp and get them to show me the cambelt condition at least...

 

[sawood12]

You can't visually inspect cam belts. You need to find out exactly how old they are in terms of years and milage. If in doubt change it.

 

[Paul Fraser]

How do you mean you can't visually inspect them? You can take off the cambelt cover and have a look to see if there is any obvious sign of cracking/fraying etc. can't you? I'm not saying that it is a guarantee of them lasting any particular length of time, mind.

 

[sawood12]

Of course if they are cracked or visually damaged then the belt has seen better days and I wouldn't even turn the engine over. But what if you look and all seems fine? How do you determine how much life is left in the belt if there are no signs of cracking, damage or anything else? The strength of these belts is not in the rubber, it's in the chord that is internal to the rubber so the rubber may look fine, but the cord may be on its last freyed strand. Of all the timing belts i've ever removed off previous cars, usually within 500 miles or so of the replacement interval, they have always looked almost brand new. Certainly no signs of any cracking or distress, and certainly nothing to indicate that you are within 500 miles of useful life remaining.

All i'm saying is that when buying if you cannot positively identify when the belt was last changed, and I mean from garage receipts not simply trusting the seller, and you want to go ahead and buy the car (not necessarily a reason not to buy) then change the belt ASAP, or even better get the seller to change the belt before money exchanges hands. It's worth being extra paranoid about these things.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Of all the timing belts i've ever removed off previous cars, usually within 500 miles or so of the replacement interval, they have always looked almost brand new. Certainly no signs of any cracking or distress, and certainly nothing to indicate that you are within 500 miles of useful life remaining.

Of course, they might well have 20 years of life remaining. Or 2 minutes. That's the point of expected life limits on belts - err on the safest of safe sides to be safe. I'd guess that belts would usually go on far longer than specified - as is shown by the number of times people mention cars with no history of a belt change for many years. Do you want to be the person who has the rare belt failure? Probably not, which is why people are paranoid about changing them.

 

[markbannister]

Paul,

If you want someone else to come with you to help with looking for blue smoke etc. I'll be more than glad, but I ain't no expert!

Regards, Mark.

 

[Paul Fraser]

Thanks for the offer Mark but I don't think I'm going to bother with it. As to the timing belt issue, you are all preaching to the converted, but it would be obviously advantageous to be able to drive it to a garage or home to get the belts done rather than having to have it trailered. I'm still curious as to whether or not there is any visual evidence of a belt failing before it does so.

 

[sawood12]

Well that all depends on the failure mechanism. There are two failure mechanisms (assuming normal use) - the first is the freying of the twisted strand internal cord. This deteriorates over miles of use due to the bending of the belt as it goes round pulleys and is loaded then unloaded. This is what the milage limitation is to protect against (40k on our cars). If say you were to clock up 40k miles in say 2 yrs and inspect the belt the moment before failure there would be no external signs of the impending failure.

The second failure mode is attack of the rubber by ozone and oxygen in the air around us. These two gasses are corrosive to rubber and over time and exposure will embrittle the rubber and cause it to crack and craze (like you see on the sidewalls of old tyres). This is what the calendar time limitation is to protect against (4 yrs on our cars). Therefore if you were to say only cover 10k miles in 4 yrs and were to visually inspect the belt the moment before failure you very well might see a deterioration of the rubber itself in the form of cracking or crazing right in the corners of the teeth. Of course if the properties of the rubber around the internal cord breaks down then the cord is not supported and will fail.

By the same token, if you accidentally spill any chemical substance on your timing belt like oil, brake fluid, then you should replace your belt ASAP just incase the fluids have chemically attacked the rubber.

Of course I have a theory about a third failure mechanism. There may be a replacement interval agains the timing belt, but there isn't against the balance shaft belt. This means that often the balance shaft belt is not replaced at the same time and over years can be missed across several timing belt changes. Then one day the balance shaft belt fails and in all liklihood takes out your timing belt. The moral of the story is to always replace the balance shaft belt when you replace the timing belt. It's only £30.

 

[NeilW]

Of the handful of belt failures I've seen, both p-car and non p-car, the belt was still in one piece and in the correct place. However, the rubber teeth had sheared off in situ. I know modern belts can use kevlar reinforcement for the outer belt, but that's of little use if the rubber teeth have fallen off.

 

[Paul Fraser]

Thanks to both of you for those posts: interesting.