Are Porsche an R&D house and final assembly plant, or do they actually make anything themselves?[8|]
What do Porsche actually do?
- Thread starter Rodney Naghar
- Start date
Agreed!
Then you will see the fantastic operation they have there.
Many suppliers are on the same industrial area, it's all very "local"
Then you will see the fantastic operation they have there.
Many suppliers are on the same industrial area, it's all very "local"
Michael Downing
New member
Nope. All that matters to me is (a) what they got up to during 2003 while building my pride & joy and (b) that they organise someone somewhere to keep up the supply of parts.
Anything else is just icing on the cake.
It's not a criticism by any means....it's a genuine question.
Guest
New member
not a lot. most parts are shipped out to suppliers and then bolted/glued/welded together on the factory floor. I reckon 99% of a vehicle is not actually "made" by the company whose badge sits on the front.
The only real exception to this rule is the body parts. the majority of the pressings are usually made on the same premises as where the the cars are assembled, but usually by a completely independant, or very rarely, partner company.
Now with Porsche themselves, I'm not 100% sure of the exact content, I've only worked on interiors for them (not for Porsche direct mind you, but a supplier!), but I will say that of all the companies I've worked for, only Mercedes actually had their name over a door to the body pressing plant.....
The only real exception to this rule is the body parts. the majority of the pressings are usually made on the same premises as where the the cars are assembled, but usually by a completely independant, or very rarely, partner company.
Now with Porsche themselves, I'm not 100% sure of the exact content, I've only worked on interiors for them (not for Porsche direct mind you, but a supplier!), but I will say that of all the companies I've worked for, only Mercedes actually had their name over a door to the body pressing plant.....
Most body pressings are made by BMW (except the Cayenne - which are made by VW)
Guest
New member
If you look at all the car manufacturers, you'll see none of them make much.
The wheels, tyres, brake discs, brake pads, callipers, brake hoses, springs, shock absorbers, drive shafts, seats, steering wheels, windows, wipers, lights, motors, engine management, radiators, air con, spark plugs, air filter, are all outsourced.
The rest is largely made to their spec by external contractors.
If this wasn't the case, the cost would be more.
Costs are controlled by using specialists in each of the component areas.
Another good example is PC's. How much of the PC you are typing on is actually made by the company whose badge is on the front. Probably none.
What's worse, is they may not have even assembled it, since this is also sub-contracted.
Once you realise this, the badge does not mean much.
What you are after is who puts all the right bits, of the right quality, together in the right way, with a set of cost/functionality compromises that meet your expectations.
Of course the key differentiator is design; the external packaging.
People will pay for what it looks like on the outside
The wheels, tyres, brake discs, brake pads, callipers, brake hoses, springs, shock absorbers, drive shafts, seats, steering wheels, windows, wipers, lights, motors, engine management, radiators, air con, spark plugs, air filter, are all outsourced.
The rest is largely made to their spec by external contractors.
If this wasn't the case, the cost would be more.
Costs are controlled by using specialists in each of the component areas.
Another good example is PC's. How much of the PC you are typing on is actually made by the company whose badge is on the front. Probably none.
What's worse, is they may not have even assembled it, since this is also sub-contracted.
Once you realise this, the badge does not mean much.
What you are after is who puts all the right bits, of the right quality, together in the right way, with a set of cost/functionality compromises that meet your expectations.
Of course the key differentiator is design; the external packaging.
People will pay for what it looks like on the outside
So it's basically a case of designing the car, then getting on the phone and ordering the parts, and in some cases (many Boxsters) getting someone else to put it together. Then some testing, and modifications and it's rolled out.
It's a wonder how a new model costs around 1billion Euros to develop.
It's a wonder how a new model costs around 1billion Euros to develop.
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
come on that only just covers the bill for the tea and biscuits
Sorry I'm a bit busy....I've got Eurocarparts online..I'm ordering some brakes,pads,roll bars etc.....and I've got Pininfarina on the phone, they're sending me some ideas for my own car that my mate Bill is gonna screw together.....my phone and internet bills are really adding up I tell you....its all gonna end up costing me........
One Hundred Pounds (stroking furry cat, pinky finger to mouth, demonic laugh) [
]
One Hundred Pounds (stroking furry cat, pinky finger to mouth, demonic laugh) [
]
Guest
New member
To design it properly so that you can get through the mandatory crash tests without it weighing 2 tonnes, will require some computing power (bit more than a PC) plus a lot of knowledge.
What you are paying for is people, skill and time, like anything.
You can always make some prototypes and go by trial and error, but you'll take many years.
The tooling costs are very large for any bespoke component.
The quality of the result, will depend on how much effort you put in.
If you want it to look like a square box with a box girder chassis and leaf springs, and a featureless interior, it is easy, but you wont even be able to compete with 5K Chinese cars for quality, ride and comfort.
To be class leading, requires a lot of time, research, tinkering, knowledge and skill.
If it were easy, then why can't people match Porsche?
Then you need the marketing, showrooms, press cars, launches, borchures, a race series, storage, a finance arm, legal department, paint shop, etc.
The money gets eaten up quite quickly on large projects.
What you are paying for is people, skill and time, like anything.
You can always make some prototypes and go by trial and error, but you'll take many years.
The tooling costs are very large for any bespoke component.
The quality of the result, will depend on how much effort you put in.
If you want it to look like a square box with a box girder chassis and leaf springs, and a featureless interior, it is easy, but you wont even be able to compete with 5K Chinese cars for quality, ride and comfort.
To be class leading, requires a lot of time, research, tinkering, knowledge and skill.
If it were easy, then why can't people match Porsche?
Then you need the marketing, showrooms, press cars, launches, borchures, a race series, storage, a finance arm, legal department, paint shop, etc.
The money gets eaten up quite quickly on large projects.
Guest
New member
you have to remember that there are many elements to a component. Lets take a brake disk for example:
although the design is pretty standard, there will be subtle nuances such as diameter, venting, etc etc. as such, each component probably has a design leader (for the system), a component designer, his bosses etc etc. effectively a 6 man team working for (lets say) 18 months. they don't come cheap! (I hope!)
then there's the manufacturer. he will have probably a liasion man in the design house, there'll be a tooling designer, an FEA man, a couple of test engineers, a materials man, and probably a few others. Lets pay for them too.
Then there's the actual tooling. a few big lumps of steel, the machining, the hardening, the machine operator, the reworks to keep the tools to spec. add on a few more bucks.....
Then lets add the cost for the actual material. not just the raw metal, but the melting of it to be allowed to be used in a casting, the power that requires, the development of the actual alloy that's being used.
So, we have a component, now lets test it. Certainly on a brake disk, there'll be thousands of hours of rigourous testing to check it's upto the job. not just on one component of course, but hundreds. Each of them a one-off which has come off it's own tool, (making up a few more coffers!) there's the people that do that testing, the analysis of what has failed (and believe me, they make thigs go bang on purpose!). How's your wallet doing already?
Then lets homologate it, package it, ship it, assemble it, create a parts number for it, make them available to dealers all around the world........
Add on a few quid from the from the rest of the company (the marketing mans wage, the MD's wage, the tea, biscuits, building, computer costs, corporate entertainment, flights, dealer showrooms, advertising, and a whole lot more)
Now then, we're probably onto a couple of hundred of millions of pounds to develop this component, even before one has arrived at the productions line!
As an example, let's say a new brake disk, to you, costs £150. I would say that £35 of that is the cost for the actual component. £35 has gone to the supplier for the component as his development costs (plus his profit), £50 has gone to Porsche for it's developments and overheads, £15 in profit to Porsche, £10 for the dealer's profit, and a fiver to the guy who shipped it to the dealer. ( I think that adds up anyway!)
After all that rambling, It's not that Porsche don't actually MAKE anything that's important. What's important is that they make sure that the things that they DO assemble are built right, designed right, developed right, tested right, and actually appear on the car sitting on your garage so that they fulfil the function that you expect.
You must remember, that for Porsche to actually build, power, man, supply, and run a factory dedicated to them that makes brake disks, would actually make a simgle component cost more than if it paid Brembo to make them for it! That, simply put, is why a car costs so much, but equally, doesn't cost any more.
although the design is pretty standard, there will be subtle nuances such as diameter, venting, etc etc. as such, each component probably has a design leader (for the system), a component designer, his bosses etc etc. effectively a 6 man team working for (lets say) 18 months. they don't come cheap! (I hope!)
then there's the manufacturer. he will have probably a liasion man in the design house, there'll be a tooling designer, an FEA man, a couple of test engineers, a materials man, and probably a few others. Lets pay for them too.
Then there's the actual tooling. a few big lumps of steel, the machining, the hardening, the machine operator, the reworks to keep the tools to spec. add on a few more bucks.....
Then lets add the cost for the actual material. not just the raw metal, but the melting of it to be allowed to be used in a casting, the power that requires, the development of the actual alloy that's being used.
So, we have a component, now lets test it. Certainly on a brake disk, there'll be thousands of hours of rigourous testing to check it's upto the job. not just on one component of course, but hundreds. Each of them a one-off which has come off it's own tool, (making up a few more coffers!) there's the people that do that testing, the analysis of what has failed (and believe me, they make thigs go bang on purpose!). How's your wallet doing already?
Then lets homologate it, package it, ship it, assemble it, create a parts number for it, make them available to dealers all around the world........
Add on a few quid from the from the rest of the company (the marketing mans wage, the MD's wage, the tea, biscuits, building, computer costs, corporate entertainment, flights, dealer showrooms, advertising, and a whole lot more)
Now then, we're probably onto a couple of hundred of millions of pounds to develop this component, even before one has arrived at the productions line!
As an example, let's say a new brake disk, to you, costs £150. I would say that £35 of that is the cost for the actual component. £35 has gone to the supplier for the component as his development costs (plus his profit), £50 has gone to Porsche for it's developments and overheads, £15 in profit to Porsche, £10 for the dealer's profit, and a fiver to the guy who shipped it to the dealer. ( I think that adds up anyway!)
After all that rambling, It's not that Porsche don't actually MAKE anything that's important. What's important is that they make sure that the things that they DO assemble are built right, designed right, developed right, tested right, and actually appear on the car sitting on your garage so that they fulfil the function that you expect.
You must remember, that for Porsche to actually build, power, man, supply, and run a factory dedicated to them that makes brake disks, would actually make a simgle component cost more than if it paid Brembo to make them for it! That, simply put, is why a car costs so much, but equally, doesn't cost any more.
Some great insight there Mike!
Where does Porsche get involved in the development process, do they oversee any of the work, or do they just specify what they need (design the component) and leave the rest up to the manufacturers? I'd assume Brembo, for example, would know much more than Porsche about disks (for example), so in what way would Porsche's input be of any value to them apart from clearly detailing their requirements? Does that apply to all the other components making up the car?
FYI, a friend of mine was doing an audit of a car parts manufacturer in the UK. The alloy wheel pressing machines work 24 hours a day 7 days a week, stamping out the alloys at a cost of around £12 per alloy, regardless of design, the manufacturing price varies very little. This company then go on to sell these alloys at a loss to the customers to garner some other business from them. We end up being charged around £1,000 for a set that costs no more than £50 to make!
Where does Porsche get involved in the development process, do they oversee any of the work, or do they just specify what they need (design the component) and leave the rest up to the manufacturers? I'd assume Brembo, for example, would know much more than Porsche about disks (for example), so in what way would Porsche's input be of any value to them apart from clearly detailing their requirements? Does that apply to all the other components making up the car?
FYI, a friend of mine was doing an audit of a car parts manufacturer in the UK. The alloy wheel pressing machines work 24 hours a day 7 days a week, stamping out the alloys at a cost of around £12 per alloy, regardless of design, the manufacturing price varies very little. This company then go on to sell these alloys at a loss to the customers to garner some other business from them. We end up being charged around £1,000 for a set that costs no more than £50 to make!
Guest
New member
Porsche would both oversee and design the component. The knowledge of the overall system would mainly lie in the supplier, but the wishes, and the spec would come from Porsche, effectively pushing the boundaries (ceramic brakes spring to mind). they would make initial investments in the new technologies, they would bring in the ceramcs experts, they would do the basic component design, yet it would be down to brembo to control the manufacture, to source the materials, and they would work in partnership to develop a complete system.
Anyhow, different parts would have a different breakdown of supplier/manufacturer co-operation, but the gist is there.
at two ends of the spectrum, look at a set of sensors for an engine, and a cylinder head. For the sensors, Porsche will probably have very little input about the actual part (they will probably specify where it goes, but that's about it), yet the whole design of the head would be from Porsche themselves. However, the particular supplier of the sensor, and the supplier of the head casting would have 100% responsibility for producing it, thus the costs would break down totally differently.
As for your wheels example, I fully understand! I'll give you another example though. I used to work for a seating company who supplied lots of brands, yet the seat structure was based around a single design (with subtle nuances of course, but essentially the same). So why should a more "exclusive" vehicle manufacturer (not Porsche before you ask) pay a hell of a lot less than a "mass" manufacturer? (and we're talking a hell of a lot more than the proportions in volume!) No reason right? wrong. pure and simple, the "exclusive" manufacturer was willing to pay that much. If the maker (brand) of the wheels you say have a massive markup weren't selling them at £1k, then they would put the price down. As they are selling for £1k, I guess people are willing to pay that much......
Anyhow, different parts would have a different breakdown of supplier/manufacturer co-operation, but the gist is there.
at two ends of the spectrum, look at a set of sensors for an engine, and a cylinder head. For the sensors, Porsche will probably have very little input about the actual part (they will probably specify where it goes, but that's about it), yet the whole design of the head would be from Porsche themselves. However, the particular supplier of the sensor, and the supplier of the head casting would have 100% responsibility for producing it, thus the costs would break down totally differently.
As for your wheels example, I fully understand! I'll give you another example though. I used to work for a seating company who supplied lots of brands, yet the seat structure was based around a single design (with subtle nuances of course, but essentially the same). So why should a more "exclusive" vehicle manufacturer (not Porsche before you ask) pay a hell of a lot less than a "mass" manufacturer? (and we're talking a hell of a lot more than the proportions in volume!) No reason right? wrong. pure and simple, the "exclusive" manufacturer was willing to pay that much. If the maker (brand) of the wheels you say have a massive markup weren't selling them at £1k, then they would put the price down. As they are selling for £1k, I guess people are willing to pay that much......
I understand....so different components different input, but Porsche can and does have a large amount of input into the design of some of its components, its not just - 'We'll have 1000 of your 4 pots on page 35 of your catalogue, and we need some brake discs, here's the weight of the car, and the room you have to work with.....do your best'
Good to know.
With regard to the alloys I mentioned, it's not the car manufacturers who are paying 1k for them, they are paying less than £12 for each alloy (the alloy manufacturer sells them at a loss), and passing it off to us for 1k. So we are the fools who are prepared to pay so much for them!
Good to know.
With regard to the alloys I mentioned, it's not the car manufacturers who are paying 1k for them, they are paying less than £12 for each alloy (the alloy manufacturer sells them at a loss), and passing it off to us for 1k. So we are the fools who are prepared to pay so much for them!
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