What else compares to KWs???

[333pg333]

I write this out of a little frustration. The reason being that I partake in a number of forums and some of those are US based. In the US KWs are hardly known about and virtually nobody I know runs them on their front engined water pumper Porsches over there. So sometimes when I'm extolling their virtues I get either ignored or they just say that they can't be as good as Bilsteins, Konis, Motons Montube vs KW Twintube versions. The point I make with many of these guys who often are using Escort cup setups, is that in the past you either had soft enough shocks and springs to drive around town if you rarely made it onto the track or conversely you had stiff setups for the circuits, but you couldn't have both. It was always a compromise. With the KW high speed release valves I believe that you can have your cake and eat it too, but unless you've driven in a car that is equipped with KWs or something similar, you won't ever change to an unknown brand.
Now some of them will say that how would I know if I haven't tried some of the upper end alternatives and that's right, I don't know because I haven't, but I wondered if any of you guys had? I mean what else out there is comparable to the KWs in terms of ride quality and grip? People talk about the PSS9's, Koni multi adjustables and others but have any of you guys driven in a car with these?
Give me some ammo to fight back with here!

 

[333pg333]

WTF? WTF???

 

[PJS917]

Sadly Europe is different and KW's allow us to eat our cake. Escort Cups are great for the track, dare I say it maybe better than the KW's but it is difficult to get Ecups in the Europe, the ride quality on the way to the track also leaves a lot to be desired. Other makes such as Gaz are producing some nice units but are as far as I know less adjustable so will not offer the good road settings KW offer. There are some guys with the Gaz setups but they are track focused so not sure they help your argument.

KW offer a fantastic compromise, superior to the Mo30 option.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: PJS917
Escort Cups are great for the track, dare I say it maybe better than the KW's but it is difficult to get Ecups in the Europe, the ride quality on the way to the track also leaves a lot to be desired.

Thats what we run on the "Track Bitch"....Took ages for them to come..... Thomas lives on a back road which is very undulating and the ride is fairly hard ...... The car wont bottom out or do any thing untword. Theres a humpback bridge and the car lands perfect every time. Just lands and settles immediately ... Its just like a rally car....! You can really push it on the track but on the road its firm but not harsh..... We had to drive 135 miles to get to Mondello and then the same home and it wasnt unpleasant at all .

 

[PJS917]

I stand corrected, what spring rates are you running?

 

[Diver944]

This post is very relevant to me today Patrick because I have just had a fantastic ride in Mark K's newly equipped KW car and I have to say it was ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC [8D]

These shocks really are the bees knees when it comes to dual purpose suspension, they corner flat with hardly any body roll and when you stamp the throttle to unleash his 400bhp there is hardly any squat at all from the rear and no dive from the front when you hit the brakes. We just picked it up from Promax this afternoon and there are some pretty bumpy country roads around their premises yet this suspension rides and damps out the bumps so much better than any other suspension I have felt on a 944.

I am sure a full race system of whatever Bilstein, Ohlins, Motons etc with 600lb springs would be more suited for a race car but you wouldn't have any fillings left when you drive it on the road. The KW are as stiff as you would want for a track car, yet they are softer than M030 on a normal bumpy road surface.

Dear Santa.............[]

 

[MarkK]

[]All i can say is what fantastic suspension they make,well worth it,KW got two new "believers" today!Transformed my car[] .
-Paul- after i dropped you back i went bend "hunting" i was ear to ear grins....I am off to drive now...!

 

[TTM]

I'm yet to find out how good the KW are, but the Moton (3 way) are excellent with relatively soft springs. I don't know about Escort Cup but the Moton blow away any of the Bilstein Cup and Koni OEM shocks by a galactical margin. The myriad of adjustements allows for significantly modifying the ride from Cadillac soft to Adolf stiff. They certainly aren't a "cost effective" option but are easy to play with, which I find a real advantage as I drive on a wide variety of roads - I wonder if you guys with KW feel the need to play often with the settings ?

 

[sawood12]

I've not felt the need to play with the settings at all. They seem to be fine just as Promax has set them. I mights slacken off the rebound a click or two as i've noticed on a particular Shell garage along the A52 there is a dip in the road and I usually have to give the car a good hammering to get back out onto the A52 and as the car goes over the dip it feels as if the wheel doesn't drop into the dip in the road and spends a split second in mid air - so maybe a click or two less of front rebound might allow the wheel to drop a bit quicker.

In any case the key to setting up suspension in my mind is consistency - you need a consistent setup and a consistent piece of road that you know well, and i've got plans to change my wheels and maybe even raise the front ride height a tad so any time I spend playing with settings now will have to be re-visited again. At the moment the settings feel fine.

Though the guys on Rennlist are collectively a vast expanse of experience and knowledge I do find them a bit blinkered when it comes to new and different things - especially if it originates from the other side of the pond. A handfull of guys excepted, they do like their tried and tested staples and nothing else is considered. I think eventually they'll come round to KW, in the meantime you can take the horse to water but you can't necessarily make it drink.

Glad you like them Mark. Did Promax set your car up the same way as Paul and mine? i.e. with a noticeable nose down attitude - quite low at the front?

 

[333pg333]

How are the Escort Cups supposedly better? I assume that the people using these are running pretty stiff rates and therefore on a smooth surface the car will grip very well, but there's the compromise, you need a pretty smooth surface. Remember that my effective wheel rates are pretty high too.
616lb/in front and 708lb/in rear in concert with the 25.5mm t-bar. Add to this most of my bushes and bearings have been changed over to either RacersEdge or Elephant Race solids, I have the KW racing top mounts and run on 18" wheels with R888s and I happily drive around town on this setup. Also some of the roads in Sydney feel like they were built by the convicts so it's not all Pot Black smooth sailing over here either.
I would like to play with my settings some more but not enough time on the road/track to know what range I have. I even thought of going up to stiffer springs, but am now building a track car so will leave the Grey car pretty much as is once the final motor goes in (please God make it soon []). Paul and Mark, glad to hear of your favourable experiences with the 'new' car. Too much fun isn't it!!
PS Paul what the hell is happening with Lil?? Tell me she's back soon...

 

[sawood12]

I suspect Escort cups are not better Patrick. I did consider them before looking to KW and as far as I could see there certainly is nothing particularly special about them. The real test for a suspension system is how it performs on the road as you are not asking much of it on a nice smooth, track, however on a real road with potholes, uneven surfaces, negative cambers, slippery white lines, diesel and oil spillages - that is a true test of a suspension system and in that context I personally think that KW is probably way ahead of any passive suspension system currently on the market. Granted i've not carried out a back to back test, but I didn't go down the KW route without doing a huge amount of research, I spoke to many many people and many KW suppliers about various options and I kept on coming back to KW. On track the differences are bound to be less noticeable.

I've certainly spoken to someone who had PSS9's on their 993 for a week and just didn't get on with them- too uncompromising - he ditched them and went KW and has never looked back - so at least as far as the PSS9 option is concerned I'm pretty confident the KW have that setup licked. Personally i'm surprised there are not more 993/964 chaps on this forum who have not gone the KW route - they seem completely and utterly committed to PSS9's.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: VanhireBoys

ORIGINAL: PJS917
Escort Cups are great for the track, dare I say it maybe better than the KW's but it is difficult to get Ecups in the Europe, the ride quality on the way to the track also leaves a lot to be desired.

Thats what we run on the "Track Bitch"....Took ages for them to come..... Thomas lives on a back road which is very undulating and the ride is fairly hard ...... The car wont bottom out or do any thing untword. Theres a humpback bridge and the car lands perfect every time. Just lands and settles immediately ...  Its just like a rally car....!  You can really push it on the track but on the road its firm but not harsh..... We had to drive 135 miles to get to Mondello and then the same home and it wasnt unpleasant at all .

Can I ask which spring rates and valving you have on those? I am very seriously looking at Bilstein escort/firehawk cup stuff because my rear Koni's are worn (its a myth to think they last forever, my left rear has gone soft after 50K miles so I have my rears on full hard now and they feel too soft even full hard) so I need to do something but would like to upgrade to height adjustables at the front and go a bit harder in the damping for track work.

The 944 M030 koni rears and slash cut Koni inserts on the front work really well and IMHO are pretty comfortable. Lets put it this way on bumpy british roads my koni and 220 lb/inch spring rates gives vastly better ride then the GF's mx-5 sport which is an incredibly stiff riding car.

I would have liked to consider the KW option but I already have 27mm torsion bars in the back and motorsport bushes and the thought of paying someone £300+ again to pull apart the rear torsion beam + possibly changing out the bars etc. is not a road I want to go down. I could fit the firehawk cup stuff in a couple of hours at home in my own garage. For me this is one big advantage of the non-coilover Bilstein kit rear shocks with the matching coilover fronts. Another consideration is wether or not certain race series will allow cars with coilover rears. The sprint series I want to enter down here looks like it won't.

 

[MarkK]

Scott-I asked Promax to set it quite "firm"(trackday biased),heightwise it is pretty low aswell,they did such a nice job of it,transformed the car.really REALLY pleased with it[]

 

[sawood12]

Mark - Sounds like they probably set it up the same as mine. It feels great to drive but i've recently been considering raising the front a bit as i've had problems with garages and getting the car on and off ramps. Not sure if i'm willing to compromise the drive though - i'll have to find other garages!

 

[MarkK]

[]leave it where it is!!!!

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: PJS917

I stand corrected, what spring rates are you running?

Sorry for not getting back sooner lads.... I was talking to Thomas and he told me that his car is running Bilstein Escort Cups from Lindsey Racing Kit #01

The Front is running 375lbs springs and valved at 380/150

The Rear is running 450lbs springs and valved at 565/218

These are the way the units came and the springs were chosen to suit. The torsion bars have been ditched in favour of coilovers on the back. Thomas got a rally friend to manufacture special collars to raise the suspension because it was too low at the highest setting........ Its now set about 60% high with the collar in place...
We really need them collars in this country as we couldnt get it out of the street the way it was. Its at roughly M030 height.......[]

Thomas is now running the car as everyday transport and he has no aches or pains yet....! []

 

[Peter Empson]

The spring rates are similar on my current Leda setup (400lbs front) and I wouldn't trade it for anything softer. I dearly ove the lack of roll and precision this gives. Passengers generally disagree.

However I can never leave alone, so next time the suspension is rebuilt I will probably go a little higher just to see what it's like (I think somewhere in the 600lbs region would be fun) []

 

[333pg333]

Do the Ledas have the release valving like the KWs?

 

[Peter Empson]

Nope. Release valves are for girls []

 

[Neil Haughey]

Well I guess technically it is there to provide high speed damping since a very stiff shock might not respond to small high speed movements. I don't know but my guess is that the KW's will provide higher grip and traction on poor surfaces, and maybe allow the car to bump over the rumble strips safely which alone could save a few 1/10 th's a second on many circuits. Better ride comfort is probably just a nice secondary coincidence.