Whatsa happened to Indi9xx Jon???
- Thread starter Guest
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Diver944
Active member
Actually, my car hasn't really spent any time at Jons yet (apart from one Saturday so I could view it when the bodyshop said they'd finished). The one good thing about the blasted amount of time it's taken is that I have managed to fill my piggy bank with enough funds to go for the Big Blacks when it does get back to Jons.
I also forgot to mention that I spoke to SimonP today. He's too modest to post anything himself, but it turns out that immaculate red engine bay he posted a few days ago is now being filled with a 3L 16V engine, a full Garret BB turbo and a standalone ECU. It's going to blow my car out of the water [
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I also forgot to mention that I spoke to SimonP today. He's too modest to post anything himself, but it turns out that immaculate red engine bay he posted a few days ago is now being filled with a 3L 16V engine, a full Garret BB turbo and a standalone ECU. It's going to blow my car out of the water [
]morris944s2john
New member
ORIGINAL: Diver944
-snipI also forgot to mention that I spoke to SimonP today. He's too modest to post anything himself, but it turns out that immaculate red engine bay he posted a few days ago is now being filled with a 3L 16V engine, a full Garret BB turbo and a standalone ECU. It's going to blow my car out of the water [
So thats effectively going to be a 944 S2 turbo????[
]How much (roughly) would it cost to put something like that together??
sawood12
New member
Well John this is somehting i'd love to do if I had the funds. I've given this some thought and my estimations - and they are only MY estimations is that once you've got the donar engine parts you are looking at circa £15k for the basic engine. Then by the time you factor in the EMS, custom IC, transmission mods to enable you to actually use the power, suspension, refreshed and uprated clutch and all the other bits and bobs you'd really need to make such a mod worthwhile you're looking at the thick end of another £15. So £30k by my reckoning to do a really proper job. Then you've got to make the car look as good as it will go which will mean a respray, wheels, interior etc - so another £10k ish?? So not very cheap!!!
You'd end up with something really really special though, as Simon and Paul will when they finally get their steeds on the road!.
You'd end up with something really really special though, as Simon and Paul will when they finally get their steeds on the road!.
sawood12
New member
I am thinking top end (engine, gearbox, suspension etc) so am probably over-egging the estimation, but even so I bet i'm not a million miles away e.g. no more than 10% adrift? It's difficult to glean how much these things really cost from the dribs and drabs of info you pick up on various forums especially since no two are alike. And knowing I don't have the funds I can't go hassling the mechanics and specialists to get a better idea just for my own amusement. Shame Jon doesn't have a configurator on his website.
Guest
New member
Can be done a lot cheaper as proved on Rennlist. Buy a good 3.0litre engine a custom thickness Cometic gasket and you have an engine that will handle turbo charging. A decent Inlet will set you back $12-1500 Turbo £1000
Custom MAF, Chips, Injectors, Intercooler, Exhaust about £5k Suspension £2500-3000 Brakes £1200
Although saying all the foregoing I currently have about £20-25k in my car!
Custom MAF, Chips, Injectors, Intercooler, Exhaust about £5k Suspension £2500-3000 Brakes £1200
Although saying all the foregoing I currently have about £20-25k in my car!
morris944s2john
New member
So you don't even need to fit lower compression pistons??
Neil Haughey
New member
Browsing on Rennlist in the S2 area, he has a stock engine internals (stock head gasket), but the old gasket went due to age. Very interesting read allround, and yes the Cometic HG is something like 3.2mm thick and drops the CR enough to run a few pounds of boost at least. The key thing to remember with the S2 is that at 6K rpm its probably only breathing VE down at something like 80%. This means that with a turbo bolted on even 0 psi boost at 6k rpm is likely to give something like 260 Bhp. ISTR years ago another guy on Rennlist was supercharging his S2 and got something like 260 or 280 horse before even winding the boost up into +ve numbers.
Scary stuff. Give it a few years and we may all be saying that the way to go for project is S2 and not 951.
333pg333 isn't the guy on Rennlist a mate of yours from down under?
Scary stuff. Give it a few years and we may all be saying that the way to go for project is S2 and not 951.
333pg333 isn't the guy on Rennlist a mate of yours from down under?
morris944s2john
New member
Well the S2 has the advantage of extra cubic inches, and the 16valve head.
Something I don't understand "its probably only breathing VE down at something like 80%. " Does this mean the S2 motor is basically a lazy engine. I allways felt it feels lazy like its not working too hard even at 6500rpm.
What does this mean and how would a non boosting turbo or supercharger give more power??
I've been reading about the guy on the 928 forum with nitrous. Has anyone done this to a 944 S2??
Something I don't understand "its probably only breathing VE down at something like 80%. " Does this mean the S2 motor is basically a lazy engine. I allways felt it feels lazy like its not working too hard even at 6500rpm.
What does this mean and how would a non boosting turbo or supercharger give more power??
I've been reading about the guy on the 928 forum with nitrous. Has anyone done this to a 944 S2??
Neil Haughey
New member
Probably not very fair on Porsche's superb engineers to say that the S2 engine is lazy. However....
Basically the problem is that the S2 has an inlet manifold that works by pulse charging to maximise the breathing efficiency at a certain point. When I took a few measurements and compared against some equations in one of me books (Heinz Heisler - Advanced Engine Technology) it gave maximum efficiency at about 4K rpm. This is not surprising given that the peal torque is around that figure and it makes perfect sense to design an engine to give its best at the rpm level where it is going to spend a lot of time when driven hard.
The downside to using log type manifolds (or similar with only one throttle body and a plenum chamber) is that the breathing efficiency of the engine (VE = volumetric efficiency) gets worse in either direction away from the point where it works at its best. Again the book above has some typical curves which show a typical engines VE dropping down to 80%ish at high rpms.
In essence this is the reason why throttle body conversions work so well on many 4 pot NA engines, because it opens up the top end to make big power, often at the expense of low down and midrange torque.
Inlet manifolds like that in our S2's can be bettered by having 2 plenum chambers and then using electronically controlled flaps to switch from one to the other, hence also improving the breathing at the top end whilst keeping excellent mid range torque. A good example is Porsche's Varioram system like on the 993.
Basically the problem is that the S2 has an inlet manifold that works by pulse charging to maximise the breathing efficiency at a certain point. When I took a few measurements and compared against some equations in one of me books (Heinz Heisler - Advanced Engine Technology) it gave maximum efficiency at about 4K rpm. This is not surprising given that the peal torque is around that figure and it makes perfect sense to design an engine to give its best at the rpm level where it is going to spend a lot of time when driven hard.
The downside to using log type manifolds (or similar with only one throttle body and a plenum chamber) is that the breathing efficiency of the engine (VE = volumetric efficiency) gets worse in either direction away from the point where it works at its best. Again the book above has some typical curves which show a typical engines VE dropping down to 80%ish at high rpms.
In essence this is the reason why throttle body conversions work so well on many 4 pot NA engines, because it opens up the top end to make big power, often at the expense of low down and midrange torque.
Inlet manifolds like that in our S2's can be bettered by having 2 plenum chambers and then using electronically controlled flaps to switch from one to the other, hence also improving the breathing at the top end whilst keeping excellent mid range torque. A good example is Porsche's Varioram system like on the 993.
Neil Haughey
New member
Still can't think what the 'peal' word is supposed to be.
Forgot to add that a VE of 100% means the engine will fill its cylinders to an air pressure the same as the ambient air pressure. In other words the ideal boost gauge would be reading 0 psi boost. Note I said ideal because pressure measurements in any system where a large volume of air is moving at speed are subject to all kinds of complicated to sort out physics, that makes my head hurts.
Forgot to add that a VE of 100% means the engine will fill its cylinders to an air pressure the same as the ambient air pressure. In other words the ideal boost gauge would be reading 0 psi boost. Note I said ideal because pressure measurements in any system where a large volume of air is moving at speed are subject to all kinds of complicated to sort out physics, that makes my head hurts.
morris944s2john
New member
Thanks for the explanation! ahh Volumetric efficiency. So the turbo at 0psi is relative to atmospheric pressure. I understand now, thanks!
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