where to buy a 944 ? and some advice plz

[proenca]

hi there,

I just arrived to the UK ( well 6 months ago to be honest, but i still feel a newcomer ) and I want a pratic, reliable and nice day car.

For all the search I made, I settled for a 944 S2. It got my heart on, and a good example, its whithin my finances ( 5-7.5k ), seems an ideal entry to the Porsche world ( in fact, i drove many cars, but never own a car bymyself, so i guess this a good start )

I just have one problem... they seem to be short. Checked autotrader and pistonheads, few dealers, and mint S2 are hard to find. If I want to throw some low milage ( taking into account the cars age, im settling for a sub 80k miles ) its nearly impossible.

I dont mind traveling, but anyone knows any good dealer ( or a collection of them ) that usually has 944's for sale ? 964's and up there are plenty of them, but 944's seem quite rare. I rule off ebay. Its a good place to buy bargains, but a beaten car can turn into a nightmare i guess, which im not very fond of. So that leaves ebay out. I live in London, Docklands area. I dont mind traveling . Just want to know a 944 "sanctuary" for sale ideas ?

One more thing.. Ive been reading some books ,some posts and webpages to try to spot common faults in a "bad" 944. Timming belts, chains, seem the stuff to look for. Now my problem is, many ads say "timming belts and chains serviced/replaced 30k ago or 10k ago". When often should be the intervals ? By age ( every X years ) or by miles ( every X miles ) I just want a ballpark of whats acceptable or not.

Last thing, what is a couple of good porsche 944 specialist in London if I want to take a car to make a checkup before buying ?

sorry for the long tedious post, just an anxious hope-to-be-soon-pgb-member-with-a-porsche !

 

[Diver944]

Unfortunately there are not many Porsche specialists that stock 944s anymore, there value is too low [] There are a few that still do have the occasional 944, but do not expect much choice:

www.911virgin.com
www.northway.co.uk
www.hartech.org.uk
www.strasse.co.uk
www.specialistcarsltd.co.uk

I think the best marketplace to find a good S2 is a group of enthusiast owners who have lavished care (and money) on the car. Good places will be online club forums like this one []

The official Porsche time to change the belts is every 4 years or 48000 miles, whichever comes first, but most enthusiasts err on the side of caution and change them every 3 years or 36000 miles. The cam chain has no official service time but I personally have mine changed every 50000 miles, and inspected every 2 years

Welcome to the forum []

 

[Fen]

I echo Paul's welcome and I don't disagree with anything he says. I would suggest you are doing two things wrong:

1. Don't hang up on mileage. The reason I say that is the cars take mileage very well and hence you will be fine with a much higher mileage car that has been properly maintained. Even more importantly they can very easily be clocked and a low mileage example may actually be a polished high mileage car with no recent history and the odometer wound back by 20, 30, 40,000 (who knows?) miles. Even if you do find a genuine very low mileage example that could be a problem in itself as standing around isn't great for any car and if you start to use one regularly you will very likely have all sorts of problems with leaks etc. Very many owners who never use their cars skimp on the servicing because they think not using it means it doesn't need it.
2. Don't rule out eBay. I sold my 944 S2 cab on there, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because I wanted it sold and eBay sells things faster than Autotrader in my experience, and gets the same if not more money.

My cab was quite high on the miles when I sold it with 192,500, but I bought it with 142,500 (exactly 50,000 miles with me was only a coincidence) and I used it as an everyday car from the start with no worries. It needed a pair of cams right away, but I had paid £1,500 less than I felt it was worth in top condition and after spending that plus a little extra to do things like replace the suspension it was in top condition. It was my second S2 and the first also needed new cams; you could say I learned the lesson the hard way.

If I were to buy another S2 then personally I would want to see documented, recent evidence that the cams and chain have been inspected by a reputable specialist who know what they are doing/looking at. That rules out Porsche Centres by the way; if you look at a car with full Porsche history assume it needs cams. Similarly if there is no documented evidence assume the car needs cams and if you think that is the case knock at least £1,500 off what you think it's really worth (which could be close to the asking price anyway; it was with my cab). If necessary explain to the owner as they may prefer to have the cams inspected (at their cost!) to try to restore the value. Even if the cams have been inspected I'd be tempted to speak to the specialist to verify that they are happy the cams were actually looked at (they may have blindly changed the chain without checking the case hardening of the cam sprockets). Ultimately if I were to buy another S2 I'd rather buy one with unchecked cams for the right money and have the independent I use and trust check them and if necessary replace them, or possibly one with a receipt for new cams in the recent history so I can be totally confident they will be good.

Sadly I believe the problem is so widespread it has to be considered that important in buying an S2; I strongly suspect that even on here many of the S2s probably could do with the cams being replaced. As I understand it the case-hardening starts to fail as it ages which leads to accelerated wear of the sprockets and eventually teeth shearing off. If someone has replaced the chain only and the sprockets have started to wear then (just as with a motorcycle chain and sprockets) there will be hugely accelerated wear as the new chain and worn sprocket grind on each other and teeth can start to shear off very soon. If it gets to the point of total failure it would effectively write the engine off at current values - possibly the whole car in fact.

The last big thing to consider is rust. If a car is rusty in the sills then just walk away; it really isn't worth getting involved as it can get very expensive very quickly. For similar reasons look very closely at the sills and if it looks like they have been recently painted be very suspicious as it could be a case of a quick tart-up and sell on before the problem resurfaces. You could easily be looking at £1,000 per side if the sills have even quite small rust bubbles visible. Even rust in the common spot at the bottom of the front wings behind the wheels can be quite pricey to fix properly, but at least that isn't structural and won't mean the car fails the MoT.

In terms of where to buy a car, as I say keep an eye on eBay. Sure there is a lot of dross on there, but occasionally there will be a diamond. Most dealers won't touch a 944 as they are so cheap to buy but can still be expensive to fix so the risk vs. return is not attractive to them. Even if they do retail one they will tend to mark it up quite high to try to make the risk more worthwhile. Better to buy privately from an enthusiast who has used the car, knows what is what with them and has kept on top of the maintenance. Those people sometimes sell on eBay (besides mine I can think of Darren's S2 that went on eBay and I'm sure there have been more - certainly I know of enthusiasts who have sold other models of 944 there recently) and other good places to look are Pistonheads, the forums as Paul mentioned and to an extent AutoTrader. Personally I don't bother with 911 & Porsche World nor the Club mag as the lead time to print for them is so long that I can't see anyone serious about selling waiting, which leads to the stock listed there being over priced.

 

[Fen]

With respect if you haven't had it checked how do you know it's fine? When I had my first S2 checked it had missing teeth the extent that the indy I used back then refused to start the engine again even to move it within the workshop, yet it appeared to drive perfectly.

 

[Fen]

The head doesn't need to come off to remove the cams and there is no need to replace the springs.

Hopefully Jon can comment when he sees this thread, but as I understand the problem Porsche (presumably) designed the cam chain, tensioner and cams as a system that they expected to last the lifetime of the engine with no maintenance. That got all cars off to a bad start as main dealer servicing didn't look at the assembly far less maintain it. Over time the chain stretches slightly, the sprockets wear slightly and the tensioner pad wears away. It should be checked and probably the tensioner pad at a minimum replaced regularly (if it breaks up it can jam the chain causing it to snap and pistons to hit valves). If the chain stretches to a degree the tensioner will take up the slack, but eventually the chain will need to be replaced. Personally I always understood that you don't replace a chain without replacing sprockets and I am surprised that chain only replacement is done (again maybe Jon can comment on the wisdom of doing that). If the chain wears excessively it will cause the sprockets on the cams to wear also, they go out of shape, the teeth weaken and eventually get snapped off. If enough teeth snap off the chain will skip on the sprocket and the pistons will hit the valves. Additionally you don't really want lumps of cam sprocket teeth and other shrapnel floating around inside your engine. My indie tells me that the cams are case-hardened and that over time that hardening deteriorates which can result in the sprockets wearing faster than they normally would eventually leading to broken teeth as with a very stretched chain.

The sprockets are part of the cams, presumably machined in at the same time as the lobes, so if they need to be replaced so do the cams. Last time I asked on behalf of a 968UK member my indie could do a 968 for about £1,000 and an S2 for a bit less, but you may as well have a belt service at the same time making it closer to £1,250 I'd guess. He can do this because he knows where Porsche get their cams and gets them direct as I understand it (so the price varies slightly); retail on the cams alone was close to £400 each plus VAT last time I heard. The 968 owner concerned went to somewhere nearer his home and I think paid comfortably in excess of £2k for the job.

This is a pic of a member's engine courtesy of Rick. I think this one cost in excess of £3k to fix, mire pics here; http://www.cannell3.co.uk/Misc.htm

 

[Hilux]

It doesnt matter where you buy one from.

The best advice I can give is to learn what goes wrong with a typical car and take a list with you so you do not forget to check.

A dealer service history is fine however its the RECENT history thats important. Check to see if there are bills and recepts over the last couple of years, if not then walk away as the owner will not have been looking after it.

Do not buy the first one you see. Drive it and a few more and you will get a feel for them and a feel for the price against the condition of the car. I looked at about 12-15 ranging in prices up to 10,000.

I then settled on one from e-bay where I got a bit of a bargain BUT always go and see the car and drive it. Its amazing how many people buy from e-bay without seeing or driving the car.

Anyway good luck and welcome to Porsche ownership (soon)