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Which 944 turbo?

hi all,

I have narrowed my choices to a 944 turbo. which is best an early 220bhp (D reg 150k miles) or later turbo s (F reg 107k). The early one is mint and about the same price. Later one needs some tidying inside.

looking to buy to use but also as a hold for investment in the future. Whats your views?

cheers

rhys
 
It's a how long is a piece of string question. Only early turbos can be raced so have some attraction, but 150k is too many for a collector. If its a proper turbo S then might be a better option but by the time you've spent on it to bring it up to scratch there won't be much left as an investment especially if you need to find "that" cloth trim.
I'd go and see them and buy the one you like best! If they appreciate all well and good if not you still have a great car.
I can't see how the market can keep going up but it seems to!
 
Hi Rhys

When it comes to buying a classic car it's usually best to go for the one that's in as good a condition as possible unless you want a project of course. Service history is important although IMHO it doesn't need to be OPC stamped or even specialist. A well-documented car with receipts for work done by either owner or independent is worth it's weight in gold....a file full of receipts is what i would be looking for and it should be pretty large for a car 30 years old. As an example my own 'Porsche safe' file is bulging, I really need to buy another if PCGB still do them. Now personally I prefer the early cars (i've driven both) which are the lightest and thus have the true 944T feel to them as originally designed, according to some classic car mags they also command the most money too. Having said that I'm not sure that a 'D; car is the early type, check to see if it has the early offset, if it has deep dish teledials then yes it is an early but this did change iirc in 1987 (D) , also I think only 86 ( As David pointed out) are eligible for classic racing not that this worries most of us. Performance-wise the early 86 vs later 250 models are pretty close, although Porsche did go on record as saying the 86 was quicker point to point but then it was much lighter and more responsive on twisty roads. The 87 if fitted as I suspect with the later offset is heavier than 86 and with still 220 bhp would be a little slower although it's still lighter than the late model 944t's.

Horses for courses I guess, I'd always go for the mint car but that's just me, plus is an 'F' a true turbo s? which year is it, if it's 89 i suspect not but could be wrong, I leave it to more knowledgeable folk on that particular model to answer this.

regards

Pete
 
All turbocharged Porsche are special. I would go see both and buy the one in the best nick. I use mine as a daily driver and have put 50k miles on it in 8 years and find it very easy to live with in all conditions. As Pete says likely not be a turbo s if its an 89. Though if it has M030 and CS forged wheels, which it probably will, its not really that much different. And your 87 D may well be later offset as Pete also says. However I digress, I would buy the one in best nick if the money is similar. If you are going to tune it a bit then the 250 model has a bigger turbo and can be got up to 300BHP on a modest outlay. Of course a 220 can be tuned to whatever you like, and Pete has with his beast, but to see 300BHP on a 220 you will most likely need a bigger turbo and your modest outlay suddenly becomes un-modest!

Stuart
 
scam75 said:
All turbocharged Porsche are special. I would go see both and buy the one in the best nick. I use mine as a daily driver and have put 50k miles on it in 8 years and find it very easy to live with in all conditions. As Pete says likely not be a turbo s if its an 89. Though if it has M030 and CS forged wheels, which it probably will, its not really that much different. And your 87 D may well be later offset as Pete also says. However I digress, I would buy the one in best nick if the money is similar. If you are going to tune it a bit then the 250 model has a bigger turbo and can be got up to 300BHP on a modest outlay. Of course a 220 can be tuned to whatever you like, and Pete has with his beast, but to see 300BHP on a 220 you will most likely need a bigger turbo and your modest outlay suddenly becomes un-modest!

Stuart


haha.. yes as Stuart rightly says...if you start on the tuning road it can lead to emptying very deep pockets...:) I agree with Stuart, buy the car that's in the best condition, if it's been used daily or near as then don't worry about the mileage, it's irrelevant as long as the car has a good list of receipts to show that it's been cared for during those miles . If it's been standing for any length of time then you need to be wary and take extra care when viewing, these cars hate sitting idle...IMHO a low milage car ( I mean much lower than the two that you have stated which for the year are fairly low) are only good for sticking in the garage as an asset, soon as you use them on a regular basis the bills will start mounting.

Pete
 
I have two 86 220's and two post 89 250's and have driven a massive amount of customers cars over the years, both modified and unmodified.

I personally prefer a well sorted 86 car, both in the looks department, and the performance department.

As Pete mentioned, the 220 is a lighter weight car, no anti lock brakes, unlikely to have an LSD, and should have the original smaller turbo, which are all points that I prefer to be honest, as it makes the car in standard form more nimble, less laggy, more engaging, more progressive / more forgiving close to the limit.

My personal findings with the 86 220s are..* They are less laggy due to the smaller turbo.
* They are a little more nimble due to the weight (but also there are suspension geometry considerations to the feel of the early offset cars)
* They are more engaging to drive because you can't rely on the ABS.
* When they let go of the rear end when used in anger, the lack of a LSD means they tend to be less snappy and easier to recover/control on the limit.
* On a track the only bit that I am not as keen on would be the brakes, any of the cars without the M030 front brakes are easier to overheat and can be a little more snatchy.

However, the later 250 cars, more often than not are UK SE spec cars, which benefit from sports seats, often have M030 suspension (but not all) and more often than not have the bigger front brakes.

I prefer the look of the early offset teledials on a 944 turbo.. but that is a personal thing, I just wish they had made the teledials in 7.5J and 9J as with the 89 onwards turbos usually wear as design 90's, but having said that, it may have reduced some of the forgiving and engaging nature that I love them for.

Either car with a chip and some minor wastegate trickery become a much improved beast with less lag, more torque and more peak bhp, but without any real drawbacks such as reliability issues.

It used to be that a 89 onwards SE spec car was what everyone, including me, advised someone buys, partly because of all the included optional extras such as M030 brakes and suspension, sports seats.. Back in the day my favourite personal car was a 91 Black turbo SE with CUP1 wheels, 968 wing mirrors and door handles, just as everyone back then seemed to go for and the 86 Turbo was seen as the poor relative.. But as time has moved on, the 86 now (in my eyes) looks really retro cool with the teledial deep dish wheels and from a drivers point of view has a personality that I prefer.

As the early offset 220 cars (they did of course make late offset 220 cars through to the 88 models) were often seen as the poor cousins, they were sometimes less desirable, and therefore were not only made for just the one year or so, but also were more likely to get the chop and end up in the bin when something major went wrong, which now makes the 86 944 Turbo a bit of a rare car in the grand scheme, which also has a bit of a following for the same reasons as I like them, which does mean they can command some decent price tags.

In order of value, I would probably say they sit in this order..

1 - Turbo Cup cars (I have one which is a restoration project) which are super rare.
2 - Turbo S (I might get flamed, but.. most of them are the silver rose cars, which have unfortunate exterior and interiors for the eyes) which are quite rare
3 - Aug 85 to July 86 Turbo's - (early offset non ABS lighweight 220 cars) Getting thin on the ground to find a good one, or one at all.
4 - 89 onwards Turbo SE models
5 - Late offset 220 cars built from Aug 87 onwards

But it is absolutely down to condition, service history (and paperwork) condition and condition... I know I mentioned condition many times, but these days it should be probably the number one consideration from an owners point of view...

Mileage is an issue, especially for collectors. Typically, a collector will not touch anything with over 100,000 miles, sometimes half that amount... But with very few like that, collectors are buying ones with up to 100k on the clock. However, most of the super low mileage ones I have seen have seemed to be in great condition, but if they were ever used, they would become a nightmare of every rubber component falling apart (hoses, mounts, bushes, seals, bushes) which on a higher mileage car would almost certainly have been replaced during the cars life.

Now the last thing, bubbles.....

I was in the Porsche world in the late 80's and early 90's when the classic car world went crazy, values went up, people were even doubling their money on deposits on new supercars by selling their deposit to people who were impatient or speculating in value increases... I watched mad things like Jag E-Types go from being ÂŁ5k cars to being ÂŁ120,000 cars over night (which were the extreme of the market) and cars like 911's double in value... I was also around when the bubble burst, which had those e-types worth less than ÂŁ10k with receipts for ÂŁ80k restorations in the last year, which happened a couple of years into the 1990's...

There is a very significant difference this time round.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's the problem was that following a depression, house prices shot up, gold shot up, everything went mad, people thought they had money to burn, investments leveled out and the classic car market was jumped on and values soared... The cars remained in the UK.. interest rates went through the roof to control inflation, many people found themselves skint, house prices, the stock market and classic cars suffered and goverments learned a big lesson in trying to put the brakes on too hard with interest rates.

This time, no matter what happens, the big difference is many of the 911's and 944's which have shot up in value have buggered off... Emerging markets which did not have the "Yuppies" of the 80's buying flash Porsches new, now want them and want them badly. So right hand drive markets such as Australia and NZ , Singapore, Hong Kong, China and many other far eastern countries... Even if the interest rates rise, investments start doing better, or Brexit causes more financial distress, which at the moment if anything will help continue the rises, these cars are not magically going to reappear in the UK market as they did during the early 1990's bubble popping episode.. Those cars are gone and will remain forever rarer in the UK because of it.

Not only this but something else has been happening in the world of car enthusiasts other than rising values causing investment opportunities, the 911 has come of age and appreciation... But more importantly for the 944 market, so has the 944... There was a time, like the Ferrari Dino, where people used to look down on 944's.. Anyone who had one 20 years ago would certainly of heard digs along the lines of "Isnt that one of those poor mans Porsche??" or "Isnt that one of the ones with the Audi engine?".. Some of that should have been directed at the 924, but not really with merit, normally just with envy, but it used to happen.. the 944, and in particular the 944 turbo used to be the unsung hero and best kept secret in the Porsche world. Rarely today do you hear people coming out with those jibes, now more often that not people comment on "Is that really a 1986 car??" or "Wow you don't see many of them anymore" or "Didnt Jeremy Clarkson and Tiff once own one of those and say they were one of the best cars they ever owned?"

Sorry if any of this offends anyone.. It is just a realistic interpretation of the market from what I see as a Porsche specialist that sees a massive amount of these cars on a day to day basis, many of those being cars that the people have just purchased, have in collections, or are trying to sell.

I have been predicting a big shift in prices of the 944's for many years, you can probably find me talking about it in the archives here going back years.. It is happening and they have not peaked yet, far from it.

Take note, I might own 4 944 turbos, I might also own a 944 Lux, an S2 Cab and a 944 S2 Coupe and a rare 944 turbo cup (in many parts).. But none of them are for sale and I have no axe to grind, to be honest, the market would have to go up quite a lot for me to part with my favourite ones as they are part of the family now, the only thing the change in market makes likely for my 944 collection, is that I can now justify spending even more money on them! lol

 
good to see you Jon and thanks for your very knowledgeable info, always a pleasure sir....

Pete
 
I think you have 2 choices
Buy a low mileage car for investment and don't drive it too much
Buy the one you enjoy driving the most, and drive it. (After you've checked inside the sills for rust...)

Option 2 might give you depreciation free motoring at least.

I nearly bought a very tidy Silver Rose Turbo S 3 or 4 years ago, for well under 5 figures, but didn't because I didn't really like the way it drove. It didn't grab me emotionally (even though I like the pink check interior..) and was nowhere near as enjoyable as my previous 250 turbo. I decided that I'd rather keep my Boxster S (and my S2).

OK it would have made me ÂŁ10k+ in 4 years, but that's hindsight and certainly not guaranteed over the next 4 years.

 
Cheap borrowing and getting virtually nothing for savings is fuelling the classic car boom. There's some fairly ordinary 80's tin that will be heading for quite a price adjustment when interest rates rise. Happy days for car nuts then I'd say.

 
Should never have sold my Jan 86 turbo which was in great Nick (before it went) that said my TurboS in black still ticks all my boxes, mapped and stiffened up etc.
It is just so alive and pretty damn quick [;)]
 
rhys.williams007@yahoo.co.uk said:
hi all,

I have narrowed my choices to a 944 turbo. which is best an early 220bhp (D reg 150k miles) or later turbo s (F reg 107k). The early one is mint and about the same price. Later one needs some tidying inside.

looking to buy to use but also as a hold for investment in the future. Whats your views?

cheers

rhys



Rhys.

What is the asking price for both cars, do you have a link to the Ads?
 
OP, condition dependant and if it's a 250 with sports seats man up and buy that. Light steering and small brakes are for wimps.





:ROFLMAO:
 
rhys.williams007@yahoo.co.uk said:
hi all,
I have narrowed my choices to a 944 turbo. which is best an early 220bhp (D reg 150k miles) or later turbo s (F reg 107k). The early one is mint and about the same price. Later one needs some tidying inside.
looking to buy to use but also as a hold for investment in the future. Whats your views?
cheers
rhys



Save some More and go for the Daddy 968 !

R
 
Jon: option #4 - stop it! No such thing as a >'89 Turbo 'SE'. It was an '89 Turbo, or a '90 Turbo.
 

944 man said:
Jon: option
#4 - stop it! No such thing as a >'89 Turbo 'SE'. It was an '89 Turbo, or a '90 Turbo.



It's a Nightmare ! you 've been telling people this for years....

02/11/12 GC8
Spot on. Porsche Cars GB decided to rename the Turbo S as the 944 Turbo with Sport Equipment, hence its SE moniker. This caused some confusion and still does, resulting in people presuming that the 1989 model year onward 250bhp car is the 'SE'.
The 1989 Turbo is called a 944 Turbo


These models keep popping up as SE but they are just not Specially Equipped!
[URL=http://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/yii/explore/index.php?r=site/car&id=380]http://www.williamscrawfo...?r=site/car&id=380[/URL]


R
 
944 man said:
Jon: option #4 - stop it! No such thing as a >'89 Turbo 'SE'. It was an '89 Turbo, or a '90 Turbo.


I can't stop! It makes me smile when it gets people mad!

Everyone knows what a 944 Turbo SE is, just a fully optioned up late car, or a UK spec 944 Turbo, with all the goodies of a Turbo S plus a sun roof.

I remember when the main people who used to get mad about the name Turbo SE being used was owners of the Turbo S cars for a couple of years after they bought theirs new due to the massive price hike they paid for the Turbo S in 88 :)


 

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