Hello people, i know this has been talked about in great deph before but its as clear as mud to me!!! I have a 944 S2 which is used mainly on the track, the car as far as im aware has standard discs and pads which are crap, littrerly after a couple of miles on the ring and they are nearly non existent, they shuder and make horrible vibration noises which of course is all transmitted through the steering rack to me, i dont realy suffer with a soft pedal and after taking it easy on a few bends they return to normal for a short while..So i have decided its time to try and improve them so the BIG Question is ...How ? Which Discs should i use,Which Pads should i use, as i said before the car is only realy used on the ring but as some of you know the roads on the way there require a good set of something to slow you up quickly ... Anyway hope you guys can point me in the right direction ...
Which Discs, Which pads ?
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sawood12
New member
Well for a start OEM pads and disks are pretty much the best option for most people, however if you are using your car on the track with standard S2 brakes then the Performance Friction pads seem to get the thumbs up from pretty much everyone who's used them so far I'm a huge advocate of OEM disks - I'm not convinced of the benefits of drilled or slotted disks - I've simply read too much about various potential issues with them. Berlyn Services seems to be a good source for Sebro disks, which are thought to be close to OEM quality, but don't necessarily rule out your local OPC as they will often give you a decent discount - I got nearly 20% discount off my discs from Nottingham OPC. Exeter OPC is also pretty good.
Also for track it would be a good idea to consider increaseing cooling air to the front brakes. Not sure about S2's but turbo's have a scoop that bolt onto the front struts, or the 968 scoops that fit to the lower control arm that scoops air from under the car - however some form of ducting seems to be the best solution.
Also make sure all the components are in tip top condition - no caliper plate lift on the calipers, with piston seals in good nick, good brake lines (eg Stainless Steel braided hoses) and decent brake fluid, e.g. ATE Super Blue, Castrol SRF (if the wallet can stand it) and Motul RBF all seem to be up there amongst the best.
Also don't underestimate the effect of your shock absorbers have on brake performance. If your shock absorbers are a bit tired it will significantly reduce your braking performance. I'd urge you to look into replacing your shocks if they havn't been replaced in the recent past. I've recently refreshed my suspension - although it was with an upgraded system, but my braking performance has been massively improved as a result and i'm sure it would have been improved massively if i'd have replaced my suspension with standard equipment.
Also for track it would be a good idea to consider increaseing cooling air to the front brakes. Not sure about S2's but turbo's have a scoop that bolt onto the front struts, or the 968 scoops that fit to the lower control arm that scoops air from under the car - however some form of ducting seems to be the best solution.
Also make sure all the components are in tip top condition - no caliper plate lift on the calipers, with piston seals in good nick, good brake lines (eg Stainless Steel braided hoses) and decent brake fluid, e.g. ATE Super Blue, Castrol SRF (if the wallet can stand it) and Motul RBF all seem to be up there amongst the best.
Also don't underestimate the effect of your shock absorbers have on brake performance. If your shock absorbers are a bit tired it will significantly reduce your braking performance. I'd urge you to look into replacing your shocks if they havn't been replaced in the recent past. I've recently refreshed my suspension - although it was with an upgraded system, but my braking performance has been massively improved as a result and i'm sure it would have been improved massively if i'd have replaced my suspension with standard equipment.
Thanks for that info, i have to admit the original discs and pads are very good for road use and the wear i have had from them has been secound to none, once i have chosen the discs and pads to be fitted to the car i will fit up a cooling system but i just want to make sure i make the right choice on the pads and discs...
The OEM discs are absolutely fine. Drilled rotors are really only good for people who can afford to replace them often after you play 'join the dots' with them. However you can improve everything else in your brake system from stock. PFC pads, s/s braided hoses, $$ fluid, and cooling is very important. At the least with cooling you can get the 968cs undertray air deflectors which do offer a good cheap option, otherwise do full ducting to the rotors (best).
What Scott said mostly.
I tried ATE Blue and boiled it but haven't with Castrol SRF yet - it is outrageously expensive though and one can isn't enough to bleed out your original fluid and fill for use. [
]
I found s/steel hoses worked well as they took out a degree of sponginess so, at least, you knew what the brakes were doing. Other than that it is down to technique - not that I can talk as I am a notorious brake polisher and fluid boiler. Stopping a heavy 944 is completely different to stopping a light Westfield and old habits die hard. [8|]
There was a guy who used to write in 911 & Porsche World (and American race instructor as I recall). He put up up a significant argument for retaining the original delicate light brakes, and using them properly, compared to "upgrading" to dreadnought Big Reds etc.
His view was correct breaking should replicate the shape of a "poo". It should start gently but increase swiftly and evenly to the correct amount which should be maintained and let off evenly at the end. The evenness of transition is important as any sudden input will upset the balance of the car. However, the breaking period should be as hard and short as possible. A short fat one will create the same amount of heat as a long thin one (they are both absorbing the same amount of energy). The short fat one allows more time for cooling though.
I tried ATE Blue and boiled it but haven't with Castrol SRF yet - it is outrageously expensive though and one can isn't enough to bleed out your original fluid and fill for use. [
]I found s/steel hoses worked well as they took out a degree of sponginess so, at least, you knew what the brakes were doing. Other than that it is down to technique - not that I can talk as I am a notorious brake polisher and fluid boiler. Stopping a heavy 944 is completely different to stopping a light Westfield and old habits die hard. [8|]
There was a guy who used to write in 911 & Porsche World (and American race instructor as I recall). He put up up a significant argument for retaining the original delicate light brakes, and using them properly, compared to "upgrading" to dreadnought Big Reds etc.
His view was correct breaking should replicate the shape of a "poo". It should start gently but increase swiftly and evenly to the correct amount which should be maintained and let off evenly at the end. The evenness of transition is important as any sudden input will upset the balance of the car. However, the breaking period should be as hard and short as possible. A short fat one will create the same amount of heat as a long thin one (they are both absorbing the same amount of energy). The short fat one allows more time for cooling though.
John,
'Poo' braking keeps the car settled and provides a smoother ride and is well worth using, not always easy to get right, but very satisfying when you do.[][]
Millers now do a racing brake fluid that matches SRF on just about all counts except cost, I will probably use it next.
'Poo' braking keeps the car settled and provides a smoother ride and is well worth using, not always easy to get right, but very satisfying when you do.[
][]Millers now do a racing brake fluid that matches SRF on just about all counts except cost, I will probably use it next.
Justin85
New member
My S2 came with newly fitted Zimmermann cross drilled discs and Pagid pads, which have always been grumbly and squeal a bit, but have provided decent fade free stopping power.
Having done about 12000 miles on them, I am now getting a nice judder when braking, which may be due to a build up of pad material on the disc. I can't shake it so have decided to replace disks and pads.
I have gone for a pair of solid Sebro disks. OE disks were quoted to me at £72ea (ex VAT, inc. a PCGB discount), wheras the Sebro's from ECP were just £40 each (ex VAT, inc discount).
I've also gone for Textar (Pagid) pads from GSF for about £60, which are close to if not OE. I have changed my rear brake lines recently so have already changed the old fluid for some SRF which I had left over from a bulk buy, and upgraded to braided hoses.
If they are kept in good order I think that the braking system on the 220 Turbo / S2 is pretty good for fast road use.
Jusitn
Having done about 12000 miles on them, I am now getting a nice judder when braking, which may be due to a build up of pad material on the disc. I can't shake it so have decided to replace disks and pads.
I have gone for a pair of solid Sebro disks. OE disks were quoted to me at £72ea (ex VAT, inc. a PCGB discount), wheras the Sebro's from ECP were just £40 each (ex VAT, inc discount).
I've also gone for Textar (Pagid) pads from GSF for about £60, which are close to if not OE. I have changed my rear brake lines recently so have already changed the old fluid for some SRF which I had left over from a bulk buy, and upgraded to braided hoses.
If they are kept in good order I think that the braking system on the 220 Turbo / S2 is pretty good for fast road use.
Jusitn
Well today i priced up drilled front and rears discs with EBC red stuff pads for the front and rear,the price came in at 554 notes inc the vat but i was then told that the rear discs are on a long back order for most suppliers...Great.
So now im thinking if i can set up some sort of decent cooling system then i might just fit OEM discs with EBC red stuff pads.BUT more than one person has told me that the red suff pads just eat discs,dose anyone have any experience with these pads with normal OEM discs ?
So now im thinking if i can set up some sort of decent cooling system then i might just fit OEM discs with EBC red stuff pads.BUT more than one person has told me that the red suff pads just eat discs,dose anyone have any experience with these pads with normal OEM discs ?
sawood12
New member
Well EBC generally doesn't seem to have a very good reputation on this forum although there are one or two people who like them. I had EBC red stuff ceramic with Zimmerman drilled disks on my standard brake set up (i.e. same as the S2) and I was very dissapointed. They had no cold bite and little feel to them. On track they stood upto as much temperature as I could throw at them but again had no feel. I then upgraded to Big Blacks and EBC yellows and OEM disks. I went for yellows on the recommendation of someone else who rated them much more than reds and on the whole they are much much better though still lack feel - and they squeal a bit. Again they seem to perform fine under high temps. I am looking forward to changing them and think i'll revert back to OEM pads as there is plenty of temperature capacity in the Big Blacks.
Other pads over the Performance Friction (PFC) pads that seem to get good reviews are Mintex 1155's and Pagid (can't remember the colour).
I don't think there is a perfect performance pad and it all depends upon what personal feel you are after. Performance pads are a compromise and the performance pads generally compromise things like wear rate, noise, cold bite and dust generation to achieve the high temp performance improvements. Unfortunately what's good for one person might be your personal nightmare - like EBC reds were for me.
Other pads over the Performance Friction (PFC) pads that seem to get good reviews are Mintex 1155's and Pagid (can't remember the colour).
I don't think there is a perfect performance pad and it all depends upon what personal feel you are after. Performance pads are a compromise and the performance pads generally compromise things like wear rate, noise, cold bite and dust generation to achieve the high temp performance improvements. Unfortunately what's good for one person might be your personal nightmare - like EBC reds were for me.
Well thanks for that advice, i think i will give them a miss, I have heard good things about pagid pads so may be i will go down that road ,all i need now is to find out which ones will work best for me, at the end of the day i would say the car spends 50% on the Track and 50% of its time on the roads so can anyone advise me on the pagid pads which would be best for this use...im not to worried about braking noise and brake dust but just the fact that they will do the job on and off the track...
chrisg
Member
For what its worth, I used to have an S2 that I used a lot of track days. You need to make sure all the brake components from the master cylinder onwards are up to the job: suggest braded hoses and AP racing 660 fluid. After this, stick with standard discs and uprated (harder/ higher temp) pads e.g. Mintex 1155 or 1166 (very hard mainly for racing). This was a pretty good setup for all tracks.
Recently I've been running a similar setup on the Turbo - I even managed a trackday at Rockingham and several laps of the Ring on standard pads.
IMHO, provided the basics (fluid, master cylinder & flexi pipes) are up to the job, you only really need to upgrade the pad material.
Look at the cup cars and Turbos that were racing on slicks = shed loads of grip. They didn't have big blacks etc - just harder pads ..... !
Recently I've been running a similar setup on the Turbo - I even managed a trackday at Rockingham and several laps of the Ring on standard pads.
IMHO, provided the basics (fluid, master cylinder & flexi pipes) are up to the job, you only really need to upgrade the pad material.
Look at the cup cars and Turbos that were racing on slicks = shed loads of grip. They didn't have big blacks etc - just harder pads ..... !
edh
New member
Sounds like your pads are disintegrating & leaving deposits on the disk.
You need a harder front pad (maybe it will wear the disc more, but discs are a consumable, & I prefer to stop)
OE pads/discs in the rear should be fine, they shouldn't work too hard.
Cooling is a cheap brak upgrade - there's a good route to run ducting from the front PU through to the rear of the discs.
What tyres are you running? sticky rubber needs harder pads as well. - for example, Mintex 1155's will be fine for road tyres, but borderline for trackday tyres (R888's etc..) and no good for slicks.
Most track pads produce loads of dust, they can be noisy, and the brake dust can be very corrosive. At the cheaper end, I'd go for Mintex 1155 or Ferodo DS 2500, I'm yet to try the PF pads in my car.
You need a harder front pad (maybe it will wear the disc more, but discs are a consumable, & I prefer to stop)
OE pads/discs in the rear should be fine, they shouldn't work too hard.
Cooling is a cheap brak upgrade - there's a good route to run ducting from the front PU through to the rear of the discs.
What tyres are you running? sticky rubber needs harder pads as well. - for example, Mintex 1155's will be fine for road tyres, but borderline for trackday tyres (R888's etc..) and no good for slicks.
Most track pads produce loads of dust, they can be noisy, and the brake dust can be very corrosive. At the cheaper end, I'd go for Mintex 1155 or Ferodo DS 2500, I'm yet to try the PF pads in my car.
sawood12
New member
You're right, big blacks are not necessary- but look the business. But ultimately once you get over 250bhp the 220 turbo brake set up (i.e. the same as the S2) are not really man enough for the task so you need to upgrade to either the later turbo S4 setup or Big Blacks - Big Blacks were cheaper brand new than a 2nd hand refurbed S4 setup so it was a no-brainer for me and you could argue that the s4 brake setup is really only good for upto 300bhp - over that you are getting into BB territory.
The car is wearing normal road tyres at the moment but i have been pricing up some road leagal track tyres but they seem to cost an arm and a leg...For me the car handles well, everthing feels nice and tight on the track and it has good grip in the dry but leathal in the wet...for me like most people my main issue is stopping or slowing down quickly, i will be fitting braided brake hoses and changing the fluid for something which can cope better with higher temps...So i think the last question im left with is wheres the cheapest place to buy OEM front and rear discs and a set of Pagid pads from...?
Thanks for the advice wheres the best place to purschase PFCs from and what type of pads do you used , would you have a pad type number...?
I was ringing around for parts prices and a guy from FVD told that Mintex fast road and track pads fair the same as Pagid Blues...but at a lower cost... Dose anyone else rate these pads for road and track use ?
I was ringing around for parts prices and a guy from FVD told that Mintex fast road and track pads fair the same as Pagid Blues...but at a lower cost... Dose anyone else rate these pads for road and track use ?
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