Why did it take so long for the 964 RS to become an icon?
- Thread starter PhilRS
- Start date
Hacki
Active member
From the German point of view, it´s easy. When the car was launched, everybody was excited. They had the 2.7 RS on their minds. The car also looked like the car raced in the Carrera Cup, that helped, too.
Then, when the first customers got their cars, they found out pretty quick that it´s very stiff sprung, loud, not comfortable on a long distance and without underseal.
Not what you exspect to be your daily drive.
Two years later the 911s body shape changed and all of a sudden the RS was an old car, an old car that you could not use daily to make bad things worse. Prices dropped, there were low low mileage cars on the market for little money. Additional, Porsche´s reputation was not too good those days, they struggled to survive.
After that the watercooled cars came (even writing that is hard and a pain in the a**), people simply forgot the old RS.
Years later enthusiasts remembered the good old Porsche qualities and the pure character of the aircooled cars, so 964s and 993s were a matter of interest again.
And in the center, of course, the RS versions. Now loved for the way they are. These cars were toys now, precious toys, nobody really cared about the lack of comfort. And more and more drivers found out how much fun they are on track and how strong they are built.
And more and more people now know that if you want the real thing you have to go for an 964 RS.
(Nobody wanted a Van Gogh, when he was alive)
That´s the short version from the continent!
Hacki
Then, when the first customers got their cars, they found out pretty quick that it´s very stiff sprung, loud, not comfortable on a long distance and without underseal.
Not what you exspect to be your daily drive.
Two years later the 911s body shape changed and all of a sudden the RS was an old car, an old car that you could not use daily to make bad things worse. Prices dropped, there were low low mileage cars on the market for little money. Additional, Porsche´s reputation was not too good those days, they struggled to survive.
After that the watercooled cars came (even writing that is hard and a pain in the a**), people simply forgot the old RS.
Years later enthusiasts remembered the good old Porsche qualities and the pure character of the aircooled cars, so 964s and 993s were a matter of interest again.
And in the center, of course, the RS versions. Now loved for the way they are. These cars were toys now, precious toys, nobody really cared about the lack of comfort. And more and more drivers found out how much fun they are on track and how strong they are built.
And more and more people now know that if you want the real thing you have to go for an 964 RS.
(Nobody wanted a Van Gogh, when he was alive)
That´s the short version from the continent!
Hacki
Hopefully, a small club publication will address this sort of thing as part of the 15 yr anniversary.
In the meantime, IMHO, 2 main factors: -
Contemporary road tests described the car as just too hard/harsh on the road. The rise of ultra low profile tyres has taken a lot of cars further in this direction during the last 15 yrs, its less noticable.
Trackdays were few and far between in those days the subsequent increase has highlighted the cars ability - not only has what was seen as a problem become a virtue but the reliability of the car under serious abuse has further contributed to this.
Tony
In the meantime, IMHO, 2 main factors: -
Contemporary road tests described the car as just too hard/harsh on the road. The rise of ultra low profile tyres has taken a lot of cars further in this direction during the last 15 yrs, its less noticable.
Trackdays were few and far between in those days the subsequent increase has highlighted the cars ability - not only has what was seen as a problem become a virtue but the reliability of the car under serious abuse has further contributed to this.
Tony
Think it's always been an icon. Not every road test was negative and most road tests of the time pointed out the good bits. It's been coveted by those that knew what it was all about, since it was made. Just taken a while for the rest of the world to catch up that's all[
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There is certainly a "new found" uplift in appreciation and values very noticeably last 6 months, with the continuing out pouring of the modern Porsche those traditionalists now realise this was a Golden Age gone forever. I could bore you again and go on on on....the word is out now big time.
I have been correctly predicting values for the last 8 years....
It looks like a 911 and shares the cameo of the first 63 911 car.....to me the pinnacle of the 911 true Soul child of 2.7RS but modern brakes engine platform and only race tuned ABS....the very few doubters left have never driven one.... []
Keep them everyone they will reach 2.7RS status values in time.....[]
Some will argue 993RS better car, wrong to compare it was a very different car but a true evolution and not just a reskin a al 996/997 GT3.....993RS more capable but as endearing?
I have been correctly predicting values for the last 8 years....
It looks like a 911 and shares the cameo of the first 63 911 car.....to me the pinnacle of the 911 true Soul child of 2.7RS but modern brakes engine platform and only race tuned ABS....the very few doubters left have never driven one.... [
]Keep them everyone they will reach 2.7RS status values in time.....[
]Some will argue 993RS better car, wrong to compare it was a very different car but a true evolution and not just a reskin a al 996/997 GT3.....993RS more capable but as endearing?
ORIGINAL: clubsport
Without a doubt, particularly when not in german dentist spec with the leichtbau axminster weave [
What is axminster weave?[
] 
SimonExtreme
New member
I think it is simple. The car was misunderstood and the wrong people bought them to start with! In addition, it was a bit ahead of its time with regard to ride quality and handling. Back then, people buying Porsches weren't used to "sports" suspension. They were after Merc ride quality with sports car looks to drive around town!
However, we have all become far more educated and most car manufacturers have a car that feels as "uncomprimising" as the 964RS. In fact, as I have said many times, there are a lot of top modern cars that ride far harsher than our cars. Most hot hatches are as stiff and "harsh". However, yesterday's harsh is today's purposeful! Having said that, I think, compared with other cars, the ride and overall feel of the 964RS feels more purposeful and the whole car has a real sense of occasion. Of all the cars I have owned, the 964RS feels like a road legal race car because that is what it is! Other cars might be fast, handle really well and have great reputations, but they just don't capture that same feel.
Although I haven't been in one yet, all reports suggest that the 997 GT3RS is the next car to achieve that feel. I wonder how they will be regarded in 15 years time.
However, we have all become far more educated and most car manufacturers have a car that feels as "uncomprimising" as the 964RS. In fact, as I have said many times, there are a lot of top modern cars that ride far harsher than our cars. Most hot hatches are as stiff and "harsh". However, yesterday's harsh is today's purposeful! Having said that, I think, compared with other cars, the ride and overall feel of the 964RS feels more purposeful and the whole car has a real sense of occasion. Of all the cars I have owned, the 964RS feels like a road legal race car because that is what it is! Other cars might be fast, handle really well and have great reputations, but they just don't capture that same feel.
Although I haven't been in one yet, all reports suggest that the 997 GT3RS is the next car to achieve that feel. I wonder how they will be regarded in 15 years time.
Errrr NO......quicker nicer looking than same engined 996gt3 but not involving...
SimonExtreme
New member
My mistake. I thought all the reports I have read said it is more involving, but I have not had any experience of them.
I realise that I am in dangerous territory --- but people had the impression also that the 964RS was in free supply.
Now that Europe has cottonned on to how special they are --- they are no longer so freely available.
My Audi A2 Sport is arguably harsher that the 964RS, and look how many buckled alloys recent fast Audi's have suffered ?
The 964 style does hark back to the lesss integrated headlight look of the oringinal 2.7RS --- the original Porsche, and as Porsche now become mass manufacturers, there is some cache in that history --- to mention nothing of build quality and racing heritage.
And dare I ask, with only 63 lightweigh RHD RS worldwide, doesn't that make them rarer than RHD 993RS ?
Now that Europe has cottonned on to how special they are --- they are no longer so freely available.
My Audi A2 Sport is arguably harsher that the 964RS, and look how many buckled alloys recent fast Audi's have suffered ?
The 964 style does hark back to the lesss integrated headlight look of the oringinal 2.7RS --- the original Porsche, and as Porsche now become mass manufacturers, there is some cache in that history --- to mention nothing of build quality and racing heritage.
And dare I ask, with only 63 lightweigh RHD RS worldwide, doesn't that make them rarer than RHD 993RS ?
SimonExtreme
New member
I think that another factor is that the 964 is the first of the integrated bumper type of car which means that they are more timeless. I drive a 15 year old car that non petrolheads think is only a few years old. First of the newer shape and one of the last aircooled. Great combination
Think the point about the shape is important - this is the last 911 that really hold to the original shape, 993 significantly changed the front wing/bonnet line, screen rake etc.
Will the cars ever reach 2.7RS values - doubttful - the 2.7 was the original 911 RS values of our cars may be rising but there's strong movement in the whole classic car market, there are 2.7's out there on second or third rebuild hitting over 100k, and do you want something that's too precious to drive properly?
Tony
Will the cars ever reach 2.7RS values - doubttful - the 2.7 was the original 911 RS values of our cars may be rising but there's strong movement in the whole classic car market, there are 2.7's out there on second or third rebuild hitting over 100k, and do you want something that's too precious to drive properly?
Tony
Exactly, but how many 15 year old cars which are so useable on off track, robust, strong and relatively economical, nothing comes close, even the newer GT3 which is Porsche's sporty offering is expensive to maintain, reliability issues, eats tyres and brakes.....the lighter nimble more rewarding 64rs has come of age the game is up...[
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lee fulford
New member
Can't ever imagine the 64RS getting to the mad prices of the original RS....It just can't happen.
For me, the reason why the 64RS is such a thrilling car is to drive over the more modern gear is because you don't have to drive it like a loon in order to get a buzz. In the lastest cars that thrill comes at a much higher speed because the limits are so much higher and you are more cosseted, bigger car more refinement, etc.
I love the seat of your pants experience...... a compact car that reacts to your every input...oooooh the noise and those lovely bumps. (The car not the wife)
For me, the reason why the 64RS is such a thrilling car is to drive over the more modern gear is because you don't have to drive it like a loon in order to get a buzz. In the lastest cars that thrill comes at a much higher speed because the limits are so much higher and you are more cosseted, bigger car more refinement, etc.
I love the seat of your pants experience...... a compact car that reacts to your every input...oooooh the noise and those lovely bumps. (The car not the wife)
Lee,
You are bang on with your comments.
In desparation I tried a couple of GT3s at the weekend, on a twisty B road you get nothing from them (if you want to keep your licence that is). They are superb cars but the limits are so high that in "normal" driving it is the car that is doing the work rather than the driver, they are also (relatively speaking) big cars and feel it on the twisties.
I got a small fix yesterday when I got to drive a LHD lwt for a few miles, lovely stuff and so different to my stock C2, still prefer to find a rhd though altho I might have to go lhd if the current dearth of rhd cars continues......
Regards,
Kevin.
You are bang on with your comments.
In desparation I tried a couple of GT3s at the weekend, on a twisty B road you get nothing from them (if you want to keep your licence that is). They are superb cars but the limits are so high that in "normal" driving it is the car that is doing the work rather than the driver, they are also (relatively speaking) big cars and feel it on the twisties.
I got a small fix yesterday when I got to drive a LHD lwt for a few miles, lovely stuff and so different to my stock C2, still prefer to find a rhd though altho I might have to go lhd if the current dearth of rhd cars continues......
Regards,
Kevin.
I think you just answered the question[
]George Elliott
New member
Good stuff - I especially agree the driving position, view of the road - unique wing tops, rear engine feel, dancing steering, balance, strong gearbox, rev counter position & layout, floor hinge pedals with beautiful touch, the view in the drivers door mirror - all provide a feel like no other car. Then there is the smell from the heat exchangers and the adhesives used to fit the interior, plus the noise of the simple 2 valve flat 6 with the fan whine.
2.7 rs WAS the best 911, but lets be honest, who would want a 911 with only 210hp, no brakes, no lights, pre-historic injection, fragile crank-cases, and rust? (Not to be confused with Francis Tuthill built cars which are Rally proven and exceptional IMO) What would you use a 2.7 for that a 964rs would not do better? Polishing perhaps....
964rs is an icon because of the benefit of hindsight?
That's how Icons happen, ( - as Van Gogh) It is only dawning on Mr average now because he had to be told and shown, - a few people worked it out for themselves. The "experts" who criticised the 964 generally did us a big favour on depreciation, they always talk about what's wrong never whats right. Any 964 is a v.good sportscar.
George
'89 944T - balanced by the factory
'91 964rs - balanced by the driver
2.7 rs WAS the best 911, but lets be honest, who would want a 911 with only 210hp, no brakes, no lights, pre-historic injection, fragile crank-cases, and rust? (Not to be confused with Francis Tuthill built cars which are Rally proven and exceptional IMO) What would you use a 2.7 for that a 964rs would not do better? Polishing perhaps....
964rs is an icon because of the benefit of hindsight?
That's how Icons happen, ( - as Van Gogh) It is only dawning on Mr average now because he had to be told and shown, - a few people worked it out for themselves. The "experts" who criticised the 964 generally did us a big favour on depreciation, they always talk about what's wrong never whats right. Any 964 is a v.good sportscar.
George
'89 944T - balanced by the factory
'91 964rs - balanced by the driver
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