1990 944 UK Car Alarm

Indi9xx · Jan 19, 2006

Hi chaps,

Not wanting to barge in, but thought I would add some clarification.

1. I, Jon Mitchell, can be wrong, am sometimes wrong, am human, make mistakes and if anyone ever thinks I am wrong they should feel free to pull me up on it. Otherwise, I will continue being wrong, which isn't good!

2. A Thatcham standard for anyone that's confused by "Cat1" or "Cat2" is as follows. Cat1 means it's a Thatcham approved alarm and immobiliser. Cat2 means it's just an immobiliser.

3. No Porsche alarm, as far as I am aware, until about 1995 is Thatcham cat1 approved, even if the H&P immobiliser is fitted to supplement it. This is due to several ways in how it works. Not a shortfall of Porsche, as in its day it was a good system.

4. For an immobiliser to be Thatcham Cat2 on the car, it needs to be an approved cat2 system and installed to Thatcham and VSIB standards and recommendations.

5. 90% of H&P Porsche installed immobilisers break the standard of install due to several points. Most importantly it needs to be installed so that no wires are wired into the ignition barrel switch. Not the power wires, ignition signal, or to cut circuits. Even if the H&P had 10-circuit cutout and just one circuit went to the ignition barrel, it would brake the installation standard. Porsche can not be blamed for this, as when they were installing the units the standards had not been written and they were installing them to a 10 times higher standard even modern installers do today!

6. If the 1980's and early 90's systems from H&P are approved is a slightly grey area. Technically they meet the criteria of 2 or more circuits immobilised, it has an armoured box, wires are not colour coded and they will auto self-arm. So essentially they are good systems and they do meet standards. Thatcham retrospectively approved specific 1993 (I think) onwards H&P immobilisers as CAT2. Although I think the H&P fitted before 1993 has the same model number, its grey area because if the install and system was pre-1993, I don't think it's covered. (I could be wrong)

7. 1980's and 1990's H&P systems are antiques in terms of age. They are beginning to fail and I am seeing an increasing number of failed units causing recovery trucks to turn up outside my workshop with a non running Porsche on the back.
So the main issue is the install, in particular the ignition barrels being used. The problem with this is it makes the life of a potential thief easier, as the common practice by lowlife is to smash a window, open the door, climb into the drivers seat, reach behind the dashboard and pull out the ignition switch so he can manually turn it to start the car or hot-wire the contacts...
If the car is immobilised/installed to Thatcham standards, he will get no joy, see no wires tapped into and he knows he has a job of finding an immobiliser ahead of him, which could be anywhere, so potentially he may need to rip the entire car apart to find the box or the cut circuits.

If the car is not immobilised to Thatcham standards, even though it has a cat1 or 2 system, and he sees any wires on the ignition barrel, he knows that he just needs to follow the wires and they will lead him to a nice black box and wires leading to cut circuits. He does not care about your interior, he does not care too much if he does not succeed and makes a mess off your wiring in the process. But he will have a head start in any case.

The last thing is insurance loss adjusters. Often called "Engineers" or "assessors" to make the insured feel the chap isn't hired to try to find a "get out" for the insurance company. Depending on how much he wants to reduce liability, they will look for any excuse not to pay. Even if the car was in an accident, anything, which makes the car not as insured, will give them a get out. This could be non-standard wheels which are not disclosed, poor condition of safety items (worn out brake disks etc) or a security product which isn't as described in the policy. If an assessor looks behind the dashboard and sees wires on the back of your ignition switch, which led to an immobiliser, you're in trouble.

Luckily they rarely go this far unless you have just planted your 944 into a into something expensive and its worth their extra time to find an excuse why you should be classed as uninsured.

At the end of the day, you may be one of the 10%, which has a better install, which meets the standards. But on the other hand you may be one of the other 90% who have H&P wires leading to your ignition switch. Or you may be one of the really unlucky ones who may find yourself in the middle of nowhere with an immobiliser that has picked the worst time to give up the ghost.

All the best

Jon Mitchell
www.9xx.co.uk

Fen · Jan 19, 2006

Thanks Jon, I see much more clearly where you are coming from now. I still think it's clear that the H&P / Porsche TE2 is Thatcham approved as a product, but I understand the fitting issue much better. [FONT=verdana,geneva"]

On the insurance point I was told "the car will not be insured against theft until we receive confirmation it has a Thatcham Category 2 security device fitted". In other words they can't wriggle out of paying for a smack I may have because they don't like the immobiliser wiring. I tend to think that's the case with most insurers as this isn't the first time I've had the same basic statement quoted on going with a new company. [FONT=verdana,geneva"]

Indi9xx · Jan 19, 2006

I call the H&P and thatcham cat2 lable as a "grey area" but what I should say is that I am not sure.

On the one hand there is evidence that the same model number is approved and Porsche claim its approved.. I am just a stubbon bugger at times and will not accept something until I am really sure. It could well be Cat2, I know it is cat2 on the 968 93 onwards and 993 etc..

The problem with insurance acceptance of a letter or certificate is they use that as a liability getout... if the car has an accident and they find that the equipment isnt installed to the correct standard, they will then wash their hands of the insurance (in some extreme cases) and say the liability for the claim lies with the installer.

In the real world, I doubt it will come to this in many cases, although I have had two customers have a theft claim thrown out on the basis of H&P immobiliser install, which was what orriginally brought my attention to the situation. Although having said that, I think that if the owner had pushed harder it would have gone through, and the owner probably would have pushed harder is the damage caused through the theft had been much more expensive.

One thing I will say though, I may still be wrong and I always welcome corrections, as otherwise I cant improve what I know, what I do and what I recommend.

All the best

Jon Mitchell
www.9xx.co.uk

Paul Fraser · Jan 19, 2006

Interesting post Jon, thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail. So... I not only need a Cat 2 immobiliser but I also need a VSIE certificate to confirm it has been installed properly?
If I can ask another question, what happens when keys/fobs for alarms are lost: is it possible to get replacements or are you into a complete new unit?

Indi9xx · Jan 22, 2006

Picking a car security company is very difficult. Just make sure of the following.

1. That the system being installed is approved by Thatcham.
2. The the installer is familiar with your Porsche (ask them some trick questions)
3. Make sure they will be installing it to current thatcham and VSIB guidelines
4. Make sure they will be completely removing the old system and repairing the wiring that it was installed into.

Then, when you get the car back, check that all connections are soldered and covered with either heatshrink or self amalgamating tape, and that no part of the alarm or wiring to it is easy to get to or find, as well as nothing wired into the ignition switch.

Also make sure they offer a good garauntee on the system and are willing to service the system once a year.

Lastly check that the installer isnt going to rip you off if you ever need more remotes. for the Toad systems that I install, I sell replacement remotes for the same as they cost me £18.99 + Vat and that the price they quote for remotes includes programming them.

Last of all, make sure you get a certificate, with a stamp.. not a reciept or something printed by the installer, but a certificate from the manufacturer, including thatcham/VSIB number, model number, serial number etc. This shows that the installer is authorised by the manufacturer, thatcham and the VSIB.

These reciepts should only be available to an approved person. If you buy a security system over the counter, you should not get a blank one of these certificates, as they are supposed to only be issued to an authorised installer to fill out. I know of two Toad dealers who lost their approval for selling alarms mail order complete with blank certificates! And they deserved it!

Having a system installed need not be expensive.

For example, on a 944, we charge £150 for installation of a non contact (nothing to push into slots, its wireless) Toad Cat2 immobiliser, £399 for installing a toad cat1 immobiliser and alarm system (complete with central locking itegration etc) and charge £75 for complete removal of previous security systems (no matter how many are lurking) including repairs to the loom where the old system was fitted. These all come with the correct paperwork/certificates and lifetime garauntees. So dont accept any excuses from installers.